Go back to home

Getto Electronic Supercharger

Page: < 12 Showing page 2 of 2 - Powered by APG vNext Trial
Author
nelpd96
Enthusiast
  • Total Posts : 6
  • Scores: 0
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2011/08/01 11:02:49
  • Location: Townsville QLD Australia
  • Status: offline
RE: Getto Electronic Supercharger 2006/11/16 09:52:20 (permalink)
0
This won't work for a number of reasons. The following text is taken from a review that Autospeed did on the Turbo Zet.

Boost
An engine inhales air that - when mixed with petrol - is combusted inside the engine. The greater the mass of air that the engine can inhale, the higher the pressures that will result from this combustion. Higher pressures result in more force on the piston during the power stroke, giving more torque output at the crankshaft. And a higher torque at a given rpm equals more power.

So that explains the impact of having more combustion pressure during the power stroke - but what about the other three strokes? Prior to the power stroke is the compression stroke, and prior to that again, is the intake stroke. On the intake stroke, the piston descends, creating a lower pressure than atmospheric. The pressure of the air outside of the cylinder is higher than the pressure in the cylinder, so air flows into the cylinder. And as we've already seen, the greater the amount of air that flows in, the higher will be the combustion pressures a few strokes later.

The amount of air that flows into the cylinder, compared with the cylinder volume, is called the engine's breathing - or volumetric - efficiency. In a 3 litre six cylinder engine, each cylinder has a swept volume of 500cc. If the cylinder breathes in only 400cc on the intake stroke, the engine is said to have an 80 per cent volumetric efficiency (ie 400/500 = 0.8 or 80 per cent). Volumetric efficiency will depend on lots of factors (including how well the ports flow), but let's say that the VE of the example engine is in fact 80 per cent. If this 3 litre engine is revving at 6000 rpm full throttle, this means that it inhales 7200 litres of air per minute (remember, one intake stroke per two rpm), or 120 litres per second. To put it in different units, each minute this engine consumes 254 cubic feet of air. To put that into context, a little 60mm diameter PC cooling fan flows only about 18 cubic feet per minute. So, just to flow the amount of air that this naturally aspirated, 3 litre engine needs, you'd need an array of fourteen 60mm fans working flat-out. And that's without creating any boost at all....

Talking about boost, how can we improve an engine's VE? One way is to actively force the air into the engine, pushing it in with more than atmospheric pressure. If you shove in more air than the engine can consume, a boost pressure is developed. When the engine is being fed boosted air, VE can rise to 120 or 150 or even 200 per cent. And that spells good increases in power!

Supercharger Designs
Superchargers are used to force-feed engines with air - to create boost. There are three main designs of superchargers, which can be divided into two categories - positive displacement and centrifugal. In a positive displacement design, every revolution of the blower pumps out a fixed volume of air. Centrifugal types have an airflow which rises as the square of their rotational speed - like turbos, they are more like fans than pumps.

One type of positive displacement blower is the screw supercharger, which uses two rotors turning at different speeds. Because of the relative movement of the rotors, the volume of air trapped between the rotors reduces along their length, compressing the air through the outlet. Mazda has used an IHI Lysholm screw-type positive displacement blower on the Miller Cycle Eunos 800M (New Car Test: Eunos 800 Miller Cycle). Mazda picked this design because the screw-type blower is very efficient - it takes relatively little power to drive it. Centrifugal blowers use compressor wheels spun quickly through the use of step-up gears which can be planetary or conventional in nature. Centrifugal compressors are also very efficient.

So, how much power does it take to drive an efficient supercharger like a screw type? The most efficient type of supercharger, flowing 265 cfm and developing a boost of 11.5 psi, takes 14.5kW to drive it. Figures aren't readily available for centrifugal blowers, but they'd be of a similar magnitude. So the best blower design (the same type that's used on the Mazda 800) takes about 14,500 watts to drive it on a modest-sized engine. This power is derived from the engine via a belt connecting the blower to the engine's crankshaft.

But let's say that instead of using a belt-drive from the engine, we power the supercharger by using a 12 volt electric motor powered from the car battery. For an electric motor power of 14,500 watts, we'd need a current flow of about 1000 amps (14,500 watts divided by 13.8 volts = 1050 amps). So, to supply the current to drive an electric supercharger having the same airflow output as the most energy-efficient type currently available, it would take 1000 amps. To generate this much electrical power would require at least 8 heavy-duty alternators bolted to the engine. Furthermore, to handle this current, the wires connecting the battery to the supercharger would have to be enormously thick - perhaps brass or copper bars 10mm square would be needed.

Centrifugal compressors need to flow a large amount of air to develop boost. Cast alloy blades with complex curved blade designs are used, with the compressor wheel mounted within a special compressor housing having an appropriate aerodynamic design. Any centrifugal supercharger (electric or mechanically-driven) needs this type of compressor wheel if it is to efficiently generate the required airflow.

Background Summary
Superchargers need to flow very large quantities of air when they are used on a typical performance engine;
Those superchargers with the highest efficiencies that are used by major car manufacturing companies still require at least 10-20kW to drive them;
Developing sufficient power to drive from the car's electrical system a supercharger that is as effective as those currently employed would require enormous current flows, of the 1000+ amp magnitude.
Centrifugal supercharger compressors need to be large and sophisticated in design if they are to have good efficiency.
The Twin Turbo Zet
Manufacturer's Claims:
Increases engine acceleration power up to 30 per cent
Fuel savings up to 30 per cent
Reduces exhaust emissions up to 30 per cent on gasoline engines depending on its condition
Reduces engine noise and vibrations
2 year limited warranty against defects
Value-priced compared to mechanical turbocharger
Maintenance-free
Construction:
Plastic housing with 60mm inlet and outlet tubes
Two plastic-bladed, 55mm diameter electric fans with integral 30mm diameter electric motors; appearing to the uninformed to resemble PC cooling fans
Light-gauge hookup-type wire
Cost:

$300

When connected to power:

Tiny electric fans rotate at speed similar to PC-cooling fans, creating a faint breeze

Reaction of all technical experts who examined the Twin Turbo Zet:

Extreme mirth

And, just for your interest, here's a pic of the Twin Turbo Zet together with a normal, 55mm electronics cooling fan.


Download Attachment: 0237_5mg.jpg
31.01 KB
#16
s_ikari2015
Enthusiast
  • Total Posts : 122
  • Scores: 0
  • Reward points: 1766
  • Joined: 2011/08/01 11:02:49
  • Location: Adelaide
  • Status: offline
RE: Getto Electronic Supercharger 2006/11/16 21:07:07 (permalink)
0
Counter Point 1... The 120mm fan being used easily produces 220cfm, not 18.

Counter Point 2... that Turbo Zet thingy, IS a piece of ... ahem.

Counter Point 3... The 120mm fans I have are only 30amps. The theory of an electric motor requiring the SAME amount of power as a belt driven one is ridiculous. To produce (realistically) around 300-350cfm I only require the 60amps to run two of these high power 120mm fans... at 12 volts. Where do they get their information on how much power a fan takes to produce similar or better airflow(CFM)???

Counter Point 4... REAL Electric superchargers NEVER claim to be able to create 11psi, they claim 2-4 at MOST. (4 only for the double systems)

Counter Point 5... Have I ever said I'm using a Turbo Zet? Have I ever claimed I would get what the manufacturers of the Turbo Zet said they could get? Have I ever said it WILL Work? No, none of the above. I've said, I'm going to do this, and see if I can get it to work. I think with enough fiddling I can get it to work. In fact, I am determined to get it working now.... just for spite. [88][:x)]

Wish me luck [;^)]


By the end of this I will have made a great plan for a small 4 engine home made electronic supercharger (that WILL actually do something).




Also, what makes me second guess the eBay auctions and the article that has been quoted, the eBay professional electronic superchargers claim 600cfm, yet the article states an effecient belt driven supercharger manages around 265cfm. It confuses me that the electronic claims 2psi and the belt driven, with less than half the cfm, claims over 11psi... [?]
#17
s_ikari2015
Enthusiast
  • Total Posts : 122
  • Scores: 0
  • Reward points: 1766
  • Joined: 2011/08/01 11:02:49
  • Location: Adelaide
  • Status: offline
RE: Getto Electronic Supercharger 2006/11/16 21:09:54 (permalink)
0
And another thing... you claim it won't work for multiple reasons however the only reason you can come up with that has non-questionable facts behind it is it won't produce enough airflow to increase the pressure.... I say non-questionable because the author of the article clearly didn't research into the power requirements of high-flow fans.

Any other reasons?
#18

Andrew
Aficionado
  • Total Posts : 325
  • Scores: 1
  • Reward points: 2773
  • Joined: 2011/08/01 11:02:49
  • Location: perth WA Australia
  • Status: offline
RE: Getto Electronic Supercharger 2006/11/16 21:30:49 (permalink)
0
I think you'll find with electric ones is cfm will decreace with pressure. With the mechanical ones cfm doesn't drop as much with boost. The upshot of which is it seems like you have less cfm, but you'll get more boost..

The 'Proposed setup' is a bit flawed, in that you won't get any boost at all.. Think about it, there is always a path around the fan, so the boost will always be bled off. For that to work your WOT switch would need to also close of the path around the fans..

andrew
#19
nelpd96
Enthusiast
  • Total Posts : 6
  • Scores: 0
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2011/08/01 11:02:49
  • Location: Townsville QLD Australia
  • Status: offline
RE: Getto Electronic Supercharger 2006/11/17 10:20:54 (permalink)
0
Ok I was being polite and I posted that article to help save you some time and money. I am a mechanical engineer and I can tell you that there is no way that the fan that you are using will be able to produce boost of any kind. Why you may ask, well that is a very good question basically to produce boost you need to be able to create a presure differtial between the inlet and outlet.....with me so far

To do this you need to have a impeller design that reduces in cross section from inlet to outlet like a turbo. The ratio of cross section at the inlet compared to the outlet is described as the AR. So an AR of .50 means that the outlet cross section is half that of the inlet.

A positive displacement setup like a supercharger where a fixed amount of air is moved per rotation of the blower and boost is a ratio of the amount of air the the supercharger is pumping and the amount of air that the engine takes in per revolution.

Finally have a look at the fan that you are using and put your hand over one end and see how much air it sucks. The CFM rating of that fan is with a zero pressure differential across the blades. Due to the extremely low cavatation point of the fan any pressure differentional (trying to make boost) will see the fan cavatate and airflow will become almost nothing.

Now with regards to you statement about high powered fans, they are just that. If I have the time and inclination I could actually tell you how much power it would take to make a certain amount of boost on your engine using some complex equations, what I can tell you is that it will be a hell of a lot more than 30 watts but I guess you will just have to take my word on that.

If you are serious about a supercharger project for your VT then have a look for a kit from the Castlemain Rod Shop where they fit a supercharger from a toyota 1G-GTE to the engine. They make around 4 psi when setup and will give you about 25% more power or there abouts if used with water injection.

Or you can chose to ignore all that I have said and tell me that I am full of it and continue with your project. I was merely offer some information on why your particular project wouldn't work.

Cheers
Paul
#20
s_ikari2015
Enthusiast
  • Total Posts : 122
  • Scores: 0
  • Reward points: 1766
  • Joined: 2011/08/01 11:02:49
  • Location: Adelaide
  • Status: offline
RE: Getto Electronic Supercharger 2006/11/17 11:53:45 (permalink)
0
no, I'm just blind to reality sometimes simply because I think something is cool.

Just thinking about it, no there will be no noticeable pressure increase from these fans... the fan blades don't seal the air in to the airflow, so it can't increase air pressure.

An Archimedes screw could work for this, however to spin it fast enough would take more energy than an impeller.

It doesn't seem right though, that these fans wouldn't produce pressure. Airflow, yeah, but wouldn't airflow itself produce pressure? Hmm, the only thing I can think of is it WILL produce pressure, but only negative pressure at the intake like a vacuum cleaner would.

Bah! I'll investigate into an electric powered turbine engine instead.... roflmao. [(#)]





Basically, what you're saying (and what I'm realising) is that unless the blades of the fan form a seal with the ducting, there will be little or no pressure produced, just air being moved. So, don't buy an electric supercharger unless it's an impeller type because they are one sided (they have a base plate) and the blades run flush against the ducting/housing. [:x)]
#21

nelpd96
Enthusiast
  • Total Posts : 6
  • Scores: 0
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2011/08/01 11:02:49
  • Location: Townsville QLD Australia
  • Status: offline
RE: Getto Electronic Supercharger 2006/11/17 15:41:09 (permalink)
0
Yeah you are getting there with the idea, basically even if you had a perfect seal around the type of fan that you are using it would still cavatate giving you no pressure increase. An Archimedes screw won't work either I am afraid because even though it appears to be able to move a certain volume of air per rotation there is nothing that will stop the air from comeing back out as you put a restriction across the inlet.

This is why the power requrired to do this sort of thing just goes up and up and you try and make boost. Think of it this way you have a bike pump and you are just pumping it into air so it isn't connected to the tyre......nice and easy to do isn't it. Now you connect it to the tyre and you start pumping the high the pressure differental ( the pressure in the tyre) the harder it is to pump meaning that you need to use more power. This is very simplistic but i am just trying to illustrate how the power need to do this is so big.

I really to admire people that are willing to give things ago, but if you are serious about doing some sort of forced induction on you car then there are other routes that have been proven.

Cheers
Paul
#22
fehlbie
Enthusiast
  • Total Posts : 284
  • Scores: 0
  • Reward points: 5122
  • Joined: 2011/08/01 11:02:49
  • Location: Sydney NSW Australia
  • Status: offline
RE: Getto Electronic Supercharger 2006/11/18 13:36:28 (permalink)
0
The basics are that you need an impeller to rotate at least 80,000 to 120,000 rpm with a decent amount of torque driving the compressor. The Shear force of this flow creates pressure. A tubo spins this hard and has anywhere between 40-70psi of pressure driving the turbine. Garrett has been developing a electronically assisted turbocharger capable of generating low boost at idle 2-3psi. But unfortunately they cannot make a 12 volt motor generate enough rpm and torque. They can with 16 volts so it is just a matter of time till they succeed with 12 volts. Have a look at there website it is really interesting. www.turbobygarrett.com
#23
Andrew
Aficionado
  • Total Posts : 325
  • Scores: 1
  • Reward points: 2773
  • Joined: 2011/08/01 11:02:49
  • Location: perth WA Australia
  • Status: offline
RE: Getto Electronic Supercharger 2006/11/18 13:41:37 (permalink)
0
I read about a supercherged car ages ago where they had a tiny engine.. Like a 1L 3 cylinder and they got the power from it by using an electric supercharger.. The idea was the economy of the 1L with the power of an 1800.. Anyway they used a 24V charging system to get the power..

Its a cool idea as it means instant boost at any rpm with no lag..
#24
darnoldrs
Enthusiast
  • Total Posts : 292
  • Scores: 1
  • Reward points: 3075
  • Joined: 2011/08/01 11:02:49
  • Location: Mildura, North west Victoria, Australia
  • Status: offline
RE: Getto Electronic Supercharger 2006/11/19 16:23:10 (permalink)
0
If youre after a cheap experament for a supercharger, why not get a petrol or electric garden blower, remove the motor and set up a belt drive. And there you have it[%]
#25
Page: < 12 Showing page 2 of 2 - Powered by APG vNext Trial
Jump to:
© 2025 APG vNext Trial Version 5.1