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Gearbox removal

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ratta tat tat
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Re:Gearbox removal 2012/11/23 16:15:00 (permalink)
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And here's the new bearing

 
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ratta tat tat
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Re:Gearbox removal 2012/11/23 16:33:45 (permalink)
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I've been told from two reliable sources, no spacer for english clutch. The roll top fingers are the same depth as the spacer. Spacers are for use with flat fingers which makes sense to me going by the way my clutch was working before the box came out.
Here's the email I sent to Yesterford
 
"Hi Mike
I have recently installed a 2L pinto into my MK1 escort and I  purchased the pivot spacer and bolt for the conversion because I was using a 1975 MK2 escort Ghia 4 speed gearbox that came off a 1600. The item description says "Needed when converting from 1300/1600 to 2000 but I don't think it is needed in my case for the following reasons.
My clutch cable is at minimum adjustment and the pedal is right up towards me from the floor. The clutch only starts to release at the very top of my pedal. The clutch slips when I accelerate moderately and the clutch fork is hard up against the rear of the bellhousing after I bolted it to the block.
Can you please tell me if the spacer is required at all times because I'm certain I'm going to have to remove the gearbox and pull it out. If it's not needed can I please return for a refund?
Thanks, Haydn"
#17
na.charrett
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Re:Gearbox removal 2012/11/23 18:12:08 (permalink)
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Never heard of an Aussie 2lt not needing the spacer block.... there are two style pressure plates and each has their own shaped bearing that you canont mix up... if you do you will get the sort of issues you are describing... been there done that.

Just my 2.2c worth including GST....
#18

RS 2000
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Re:Gearbox removal 2012/11/23 19:02:22 (permalink)
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ratta tat tat

I've been told from two reliable sources, no spacer for english clutch. The roll top fingers are the same depth as the spacer. Spacers are for use with flat fingers which makes sense to me going by the way my clutch was working before the box came out.


Correct!
 
You have to use pivot spacer with 2lt flat finger(Aussie) type clutch.
 second pic shows  flat finger type thrust bearing.
#19
na.charrett
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Re:Gearbox removal 2012/11/24 00:02:43 (permalink)
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RS 2000

ratta tat tat

I've been told from two reliable sources, no spacer for english clutch. The roll top fingers are the same depth as the spacer. Spacers are for use with flat fingers which makes sense to me going by the way my clutch was working before the box came out.


Correct!

 
mmmm... I absolutely hate to call anyone else incorrect (as there are exceptions to every rule, and the people who built Escorts seems to throw the odd anomally in just to upset people occasionally), but...
 
I have used both types of clutches in Aussie 2lt Pinto's in multiple Escorts over the last 20 years, and ALL including the bent finger ones have needed the pivot block (forgot it once or twice one one of the types I forget which) and it all had to come out, mixed the wrong bearing/pressure plate twice and it had to come out... see the trend!). For the pressure plate with curved fingers, you need to use the matched bearing which is flat, and for the flat fingers, you need to use its matched bearing which has a ridge in it, or curved depending how you want to describe it.  If you use flat/flat then you will not get enough throw and the clutch will not feel right as there is no round surface for the fingers to contact/pivot on.  If you use bent/bent then the contact/pivot point between the bearing and fingers will likely be wrong but it may work without the space block, but I would guess the life of the pressure plate / bearing is limited.  (I have had 2 seized clutch release bearings too and they are not fun either)
 
Maybe (just maybe) the alloy European Belhousing and / or clutch is different (does the allow RS bellhousing have the pivot point cast into the bellhousing?) but with the Aussie 2lt (with either the flat finger and ridged bearing, or the bent fingers and flat bearing) and Aussie cast bellhousing you DO need the pivot block, or you will be pulling all out again to put it back in....
 
Easy to check - once engine/clutch/box fully assembled and BEFORE you put it back in the car.  If the gearbox is bolted back to the engine - to operate properly - the lever arm poking out of the bellhousing (where the cable hooks onto it) should be almost all of the way towards the rear of the opening with less than 1cm of freeplay (from memory 3-5mm is about normalish) before you can feel it rest on the clutch fingers if you pull the lever forward.  If there is no freeplay then it is bottoming out on the rear to the bellhousing hole and probably already partially dissengauging the clutch before you start, and you will likley not be able to fully engage the clutch (in which case remove the spacer and retry).  If there is too much free play with the arm coming too far forward, then you will bottom out the lever in the front of the bellhousing hole when the clutch cable pulls it and will not be able to dissengauge the clutch as you run out of pull/angle - This is where the spacer comes in to fix this issue (as the Pinto clutch must be around 12-14mm further forward than the Kent clutch as this is the depth of the "spacer"....)
 
You have to pull the box out anyway, but before you refit everything measure it as above the save yourself time and possibly money too...
 
Only way I could think that you would not need the spacer would be if the bearing (or bearing carrier) was extra thick to allow for the pivot point on the bellhousing to remain where it was (ie release arm still in original position and almost horizontal) to allow enough throw without going overcentre and effecting the ratio or position of the lever arm where it comes out of the gearbox opening (where you hook the clutch cable up to)....
 
Hoe this helps and does not confuse you more. Nothing worse that getting the car all back together, cleaning up, changing to clean clothes, starting the engine, and not being able to get a gear at all...

Just my 2.2c worth including GST....
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RS 2000
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Re:Gearbox removal 2012/11/24 01:22:28 (permalink)
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I have personally always fitted flat finger clutches with correct thrust bearing and have always used pivot spacers with all of those, however the 2 bent finger types I have come across neither had pivot spacers and both were just normally worn out clutches! Both of those were replaced with flat type clutch and for both I sourced pivot spacer.

So based on the above my assumption (assumption=mother of all **** ups lol) is that bent finger clutches didn't need pivot spacers.

Whenever fitting a clutch as soon as the box is bolted and x member loosely fitted , next step should be to connect your cable or slave cyl and check adjustment, free play, stroke,pedal feel etc. you will have a chance to pick up on any issues early in the job and you can quickly just flick it out again if need be.

Cheers


#21
Gdub
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Re:Gearbox removal 2012/11/24 08:55:43 (permalink)
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From the photos you certainly did have the wrong bearing for the clutch type. The new bearing you have is the right type.
 
As Nicholas said, i too have used several of both clutch types and have ALWAYS needed the fork spacer block. But the advice of RS2000 is also sound. Refit the box either with or without the spacer and immediately fit the cable and test to see if the pedal feels right and that you still have plenty of adjustment left in the cable.  
 
At least you have an auto shell so other than the bench pressing of the gearbox weight putting the box in is fairly simple. its a pain in the clacker with a manual shell!

Make it go FASTER!
 
#22
Avon
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Re:Gearbox removal 2012/11/27 00:33:22 (permalink)
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^ Sure is.  Just did my type 9 off and back on again (fork spacer came loose) in a manual tunnel.  Never again - the whole lot is coming out if there is a next time!
#23
ratta tat tat
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Re:Gearbox removal 2012/12/14 19:10:01 (permalink)
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For the record. Clutch is working as per normal with no spacer. Cheers
#24
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Re:Gearbox removal 2016/07/30 21:16:24 (permalink)
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This may be an old thread, but I must say that it is a very useful one. My number 2 project has had a dodgy clutch since the day I test drove it, engaging immediately the pedal was moved from the floor. I knew it wasn't right, and figured it just needed a spacer block put in, as it was orginally a 1.6L car and now has a Pinto in it.  Well last week it completely died, and after towing the car home I started pulling the gearbox out using the long bolt method described above.
 
What I found inside the bellhousing surprised me, and some of it I would not have known to look for but for the contributions of others here. The clutch fork was bent (handy having a spare to compare it to), some plastic parts of the throw out bearing were broken (tip - always use an all-metal bearing), the bearing itself was the wrong type for the fingers of the pressure plate (learned that here), and the spacer block used with Pinto motors looked home made and was extremely loose (bolt was practically free).
 
While the gearbox was out I figured I'd drain the oil seeing I had no idea how long it had been in there. It was grey and miserably looking, so I'm glad I did, but I nearly blew it by using GL-5 spec oil. Never use GL-5 oil in a Type 9 (or Type E etc.), even if it is marked as GL-4/GL-5; read this for why:http://www.widman.biz/uploads/Transaxle_oil.pdf. I eventually found a correct GL-4 spec oil at a local distributor, which was a pleasant surprise. I'm hoping it also improves the shift quality when the trans is cold.
 
The new Cortina speedo drive made by First Line is the prefect length to use with a Type 9 in an Escort, but the flange is too thick to use the factory retaining circlip, so a bodge was needed to stop it falling out (cable ties to the rescue). I also found a split steering gaiter, so had to replace that and refill the rack with fluid. Of course the tie rod end was practically welded to the strut, so I had to destroy it in the process of getting it off. The radiator was pretty worse for wear, so a quick sandblast of the frame to get the rust off and a new paint job later and it at least looks better. I also put in a new gearbox saddle bush, which tightened up the shift a bit and reverse is now finally locked out. The cheap bushes on ebay are likely to have flashing on the bottom like both mine did, so if you buy one be sure to check and cut it off before fitting.
 
Everything apart from the radiator is back in, and a quick test of the clutch has revealed that it feels completely normal now, with take up somewhere in the middle of pedal travel. What started off as a fix for a dodgy clutch sure  consumed a lot of time (and curse words seeing I did it mostly single handedly), but it's a relief that it's done and has been done right the first time. So thank you to all the contributors to this thread, which helped me enormously. A special thanks goes to Ash who graciously welded a strengthening plate to my replacement clutch lever, thereby eliminating another bent fork in the future.

WTB: Recaro seat - any condition considered
 
 
#25
ratta tat tat
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Re:Gearbox removal 2016/07/30 22:50:04 (permalink)
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Great to hear Flighter. I was supplied one of those Firstline cables from SMCKA a few years ago. Had the same problem of not fitting under the circlip. I got around it by carefully filing away the aluminium flange to reduce its thickness.



#26
deano
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Re:Gearbox removal 2016/07/31 12:28:25 (permalink)
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thanks to you all for this thread, as a mechanical learner still without a project car yet, it has been very good summary of what to look for and what to avoid. As most of the cars I have seen online are autos, can I ask if manual gearboxes such as the type 9 mentioned  are still able to be found, and does it matter if an auto'd car with lower compression 2L is an issue?
 
#27
Flighter
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Re:Gearbox removal 2016/07/31 13:29:38 (permalink)
+1 (1)
My 2¢ worth - in terms of shells, take what you can get, as decent cars are hard to find. I wouldn't be put off by an auto. Sure, they have lower compression, but if the engine is original, it is probably tired and in need of a spruce up, at which time you can put higher compression pistons in. As many have noted, the auto tunnel affords a little more room to work around a manual transmission. When swapping from auto to manual, you will have to weld onto the firewall a little tube for the clutch cable to fit into, and will of course need a pedal box out of a manual car.
 
The standard 4 speed Type E gearbox is stronger than the Sierra 5 speed Type 9, the latter of which only benefits from an extra gear; the ratios are otherwise the same (V6 box excluded). My #1 project is retaining the stock 4 speed, but the #2 project came with a 5 speed already installed. The expense and hassle of swapping from 4 speed to 5 speed isn't worth it to me (the box is longer, so it needs new mounts, a shorter tailshaft, a longer speedo cable, a new transmission tunnel and repositioned gear lever hole, but admittedly, it was a good selling point given the other problems with the car. A 4 speed can be picked up for very little money (under $100 I'd say), whereas the 5 speeds are much harder to get and prices are significantly higher.

WTB: Recaro seat - any condition considered
 
 
#28
deano
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Re:Gearbox removal 2016/07/31 21:14:24 (permalink)
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thanks Flighter, appreciate the tips.
 
That summary is worth way more than 2C.
 
#29
ratta tat tat
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Re:Gearbox removal 2016/07/31 21:27:37 (permalink)
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Shouldn't require a shorter tailshaft. Just a custom mount and reposition shifter hole. What makes the type 9 weaker than the 4 speed?
#30
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