micka
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big power f/i pinto
as all youngins wanna do, quite stupidly, is have a stupidly fast car. and ive been thinking about it quite seriously as i have a motor to play with. and have been reading up on as many projects and books as i can get my eyes upon.
for thought regards to making big power, should any plans be started with trying to get more displacement?
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maxrs
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Re:big power f/i pinto
2011/09/29 21:34:30
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Yeah, 100thou/1mm over is a good start.
Zero the deck on the block.
Felpro headgasket.
Hold your breath when you buy gp1 o/s valves.
What you think about, you bring about. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoPEt3rDSSE "If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough." - Mario Andretti
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micka
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Re:big power f/i pinto
2011/09/29 22:44:32
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disclaimer: im going to make an idiot of myself on this post because most books and such barely touch or dont provide what i consider to be enough info regarding some things (mostly because of changes in laws in the past 30 odd years. ) ideally this motor will go in a MK2, dont have the car yet. please by all means point me to someone who can answer this sorta stuff with some sort of acuracy
stroking is not worth the coin as far as i can gather.
how big of a bore is too big?
as much as it pains me to say it, i presume straight lpg is a good solution for its high compression tolerance and future stringent emission standards?
on the other hand if i wanted to go petrol, would that be a big hurdle? or am i looking at a couple of cats and such?
(just to head off the conversion questions, i want it ford powered, legal, non efi. i already have a pinto and if it melts at the end of this, then i would have learnt alot :D )
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fordsy
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Re:big power f/i pinto
2011/09/29 23:13:13
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Firstly find yourself a shell that was made before 6/76. That way you avoid having to comply with adr27a and can fit twin sidedrafts. Second there are a few engine builders on here. Wozzah and Mk1Lotus to name two. Send them a PM and go from there.
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blackmk1cossie
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Re:big power f/i pinto
2011/09/30 17:26:49
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i agree start with an early mk2 or mk1 and then you arent limited by emission rules.give yourself options and you will save money in the long run.take it from someone who has spent his life taking twin webers and refitting emission gear to escorts after a defect notice
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micka
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Re:big power f/i pinto
2011/09/30 19:35:40
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i guess the benefit of not already having the car is if i dont get the motor under emissions regulations i can always buy the model that helps most :)
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Gdub
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Re:big power f/i pinto
2011/10/01 08:26:17
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If you are going to try and get big power from a Pinto forget about trying to accommodate emissions regulations. It wont happen .... Unless you go EFI
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micka
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Re:big power f/i pinto
2011/10/01 10:25:44
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not even with cleaner burning fuels? aka ethanol or lpg?
they guys at a lpg conversion place i visited were pretty vague about it, but its marketed as a much cleaner fuel..
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na.charrett
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Re:big power f/i pinto
2011/10/02 12:23:19
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LPG is NOT a cleaner burnign fuel - Older cars with though are exempted from complying with emmision controls though :)
It has a lower BTU value, so therefore the fuel economy gets worse (by about 30%), but at a third the price per litre, it cost about 50% of petrol.....
From the little I know, only post 2004 models on LPG have emmision control requirements. (I had a choice of single or multipoint injection systems with my 2003 BA Falcon wagon, and my RS2000 is on Gas Research carby)...
Unless going turbo LPG or injected or even liquad injected, you are not going to gain any power over a tuned standard petrol model. My RS is great on $$$ (try $30 for 450km around town), but even with a gas cam and properly setup, has less power than a nicely tuned standard Pinto....
Just my 2.2c worth including GST....
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micka
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Re:big power f/i pinto
2011/10/02 13:04:12
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theres no power gained using either fuel type. Difference being the dynamic compression ratio that either fuel will accept. Decompress the engine for petrol or dont for lpg and get the same power.
would it burn cleaner when used at same efficiency rate?
Also, if used in draw thru, would the impellers suffer any damage due to the -40 deg intake.
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spigot
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Re:big power f/i pinto
2011/10/03 09:40:40
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You will not damage the impellers from sucking in cold air, possibly from thermal shock but you would have to be driving a fireball into an ice river. I can't think of any reasonable situation which would cause that.
LPG is not really a clean fuel, the quality of it changes alot through the year and it does contain a lot of deposits. Open up a LPG convertor, it will look like sticky tar everywhere, this stuff does rot the diaphrams too. You can mount a convertor 2 ways, one causes more deposits inside the convertor itself, the other causes the deposits to go more freely into the motor. Which is worse I don't know.
EFI is not an automatic emissions test pass. The tune itself will dictate the emissions and a "poor" tune can pass whereas a "good" tune could fail. The more ignition timing the engine runs the more NOX emissions occur. NOX is the worst of the lot even though it is an indicator of efficency. This is the reason that most 1970's cars especially Fords ran little timing.
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micka
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Re:big power f/i pinto
2011/10/03 13:22:43
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as far as i understand it is more fuel = more power = more emissions. Increased engine efficiency = more power on less fuel = less emissions.
What about the use of inline devices such as cats? My m5 has 4 of them i guess they gotta do something?
What about ethanol fuels like e10?
I dislike using other fuels than petrol, bit of a purist. But ill keep harping on about this emissions stuff cuz no one likes being down the pits every 3 days.
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spigot
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Re:big power f/i pinto
2011/10/03 15:29:22
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That statement is only partially true because NOX tends to increase with efficency. Mechanically all things being equal increasing the timing on any carby motor will generally improve the idle and power. The combustion temps go up substantially and the NOX goes up too. This is the reason for EGR. It purposely introduces exhaust gas back into the combustion to reduce efficency at part throttle and NOX. The only other way to improve emissions on an old donk it to use a more efficent head design. You should be starting to see what the others are saying, building an powerful engine to meet emission standards, especially today's is a waste of time that is only going to cost you money.
post edited by spigot - 2011/10/03 15:35:14
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Gdub
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Re:big power f/i pinto
2011/10/03 20:13:49
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Ethanol fuels arent pushed because they are particularly clean, just that they are made from renewable sources. E85 might sound great in theory but it has some massive short comings 1. It doesnt store at all, so if you buy it you gotta use it. No good in a hobby car that isnt being driven daily 2. The Ethanol and Petrol 'blend' separates over a fairly short period of time and does not 'remix' once separated which significantly alters the octane level through the tank. Ethanol sinks to the bottom because it is heavier. Vehicles designed to run on this stuff have a sensor in the tank to that the ECU can adjust the furl mixture to cope with the variations in the fuel mix. Good luck achieving this on a carby fed engine. 3. Ethanol is hygroscopic which means it attracts and absorbs moisture. there is a very intersting video on You Tube on this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeCyFxoWPpo how is this important in a car? Anything running a carby has an open vented fuel tank which means it is exposed to moisture in the air. Later model EFI stuff has what is referred to as a 'closed loop' system which is not vented to atmosphere. If you doubt any of these statements about Ethanol all you need to do is google 'effects of ethanol' and you will find plenty of evidence. As long as an alternative is available i wont go near Ethanol blended fuels. For the record, the Youtube video is nothing to do with me or the company i work for. It was actually done by an American competitor to the product we distribute. G
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micka
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Re:big power f/i pinto
2011/10/04 21:30:56
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cheers for all the detailed info boys,
ive picked up some reading material regarding F/I and will read through that and see if i cant understand thermal dynamics and the absolute physics related to what im trying to acheive.
is there anywhere i can find out more about using lpg as a fuel. as lpg fuel isnt done in the usa and such its hard to get books about using it. (ive been told good and bad things about this but i really would like to know in detail)
my head hurts. i havent studied this much since highschool.
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