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Helpful ReplyHot!MK2 cortina wagon (estate) in OZ

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martymexico
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Re: MK2 cortina wagon (estate) in OZ 2024/05/20 19:08:30 (permalink)
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Could be a blob of rust or paint on one side and wasn't clamped/bolted up square.
Remove the sandwich plate all together and refit starter motor, that'll tell if that's causing the problem
#91
escortinadriver
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Re: MK2 cortina wagon (estate) in OZ 2024/05/24 13:19:32 (permalink)
+1 (1)
Aaaaaaand I'm done.

Pretty frustrated with this bloody xflow!

I'm not familiar with them, nor with inertia starters, and can't really work out what went/is wrong.

The story so far.

Before motor erebuild, it previously turned over on the starter fine.
After rebuild, it turned over and starterd on the stand, all be it using a different bellhousing (capri)

After fitting the original bellhousing/box and fitting it back to car it wouldn't turn over, or did very slowly. Didn't sound good.

I grabbed another starter, same issue.

Slow turn over and very metallic/interference sound. Was definitely not right.
Starter in and out many times, and I eventually got sick of it all and pulled the motor and box out of the car and walked away. I was thinking maybe I'd screwd u something with thr box/flywheel.

Came back to it, separated engine/box and refitted capri bellhousing. This was the one I had previously started it with on the stand with no issue. I tried it with and without the sandwich plate. Same result. Slow turnover and an interference sound.

Tried all sorts of possitions, moving the starter closer and further from the ring gear using the little play it had. No luck.
Tried spacing the starter back using series of washers. No luck. Even cut a window in the bellhousing to see what was going on. Still couldn't get it to work.

I'm guessing somehow the alignment was wrong after I first fitted it? It now looks like the flywheel Iis damaged to the point the starter teeth aren't engaging cleanly and are binding up??? This is in turn further damaging the flywheel and starter teeth and causing bind up?

Im going to source another flywheel and starter now and see if that fixes the issue. Both are 10t starters.

If not, a pinto is going in. 🤣

To say I'm frustrated is an understatement....

I'm probably missing something simple, although it'd and issue I've never experienced.

Just want it to work at this point.

Happy for any suggestions, otherwise I'll let you know how I get on once I manage to source a new flywheel.

Shaun



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'If I'd asked what people had wanted, they'd have said faster horses....' Henry Ford
#92
Drewdog
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Re: MK2 cortina wagon (estate) in OZ 2024/05/24 17:15:21 (permalink)
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Thats a really odd one, after reading your last description of events.
Couple of things I can think of, is it a two bolt or three bolt starter? What would it have had originally? and is there any difference in the bolt spacings between them?
Whats the tooth count on the flywheel? Could it need a nine tooth starter? If the count is wrong it may have been able to start it initially until it started causing damage. 
Just a couple of ideas, I'll do some more head scratching later.
 
Oh and I hate Inertia starters with a passion.

GT Cortina Project "The Ugly Duckling"
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Drewdog
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Re: MK2 cortina wagon (estate) in OZ 2024/05/24 17:31:00 (permalink)
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Just having a look through a couple of my manuals, no direct reference to tooth numbers but the early Mk1 manual has a clear picture of a nine tooth starter.
I've got a few, MK1 and 2, three bolt and two bolt starters in the secret shed at mums house (don't tell the mrs) I'll be over there tomorrow so I'll do a tooth count and see if theres any noticeable difference in the bolt spacing.
 
*Edit* managed to find a tooth count.
135 tooth flywheel = 10 tooth starter
110 tooth flywheel = 9 tooth starter
post edited by Drewdog - 2024/05/24 17:43:09

GT Cortina Project "The Ugly Duckling"
#94
martymexico
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Re: MK2 cortina wagon (estate) in OZ 2024/05/24 18:32:46 (permalink)
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Sounds very strange
The starter and the flywheel obviously but different belhousing.
All I can say is check the starter hole placement between the Capri and Cortina belhousing, from memory early Ford's had them in a slightly different spot, just enough to be annoying, other than that I'm out of suggestions..
post edited by martymexico - 2024/05/24 22:06:37
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deano
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Re: MK2 cortina wagon (estate) in OZ 2024/05/24 20:46:03 (permalink)
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so i'm going to suggest the simple things, because, well, im pretty simple to start with...
 
The freshly  rebuilt engine has new rings, so better compression.
All things being equal, id expect it harder to spin over?
If the flywheel and starter were otherwise ok, with the capri bellhousing and still on the stand and it was spinning slow, then you'd suspect the starter motor. But this was changed (while in the stand setup though?)
You'd think that would then rule out the starter, drive not spinning out and returning in time (like if it wasnt lubed' enough) but i'm sure you would have noticed this though the impromptu bell housing window?
 
So what remains common?
I still reckon its just the starter inertia starter obviously not releasing, and I thought is does this once the engine has fired and spun up to speed, reducing flywheel. Is it firing?
I'd next check the battery, starter supply wiring, and earth still, to battery and engine block as well.
 
keep at it.
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escortinadriver
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Re: MK2 cortina wagon (estate) in OZ 2024/05/27 14:43:31 (permalink)
+2 (2)
Update.....

After the few hours of frustration, and not getting anywhere, I posted here and walked away.

Went back to it with a fresh set of eyes.

The original starter I used was a 10 tooth starter. I replaced it with a 10 tooth starter.

I had never counted the flywheel teeth......


Well, it turns out I have a 110 tooth flywheel.

So, I had the wrong starter fitted originally. (Should have been 9 tooth)

I'm guessing when I started it (using the 10 teeth) it was fine originally, whoever the more I used it in the car, the more it wore/damaged the ring gear, and bound up the starter.

Oh the joys of old cars....

So, as it looks like the teeth in the flywheel are now damaged, I'll grab a new set of ring gear from yesterford later in the week and try again...

In the mean time, the diff is out for new seals, bearings and a look at the brakes. If that all goes to plan, I'll paint it , refit it and fingers crossed, once the flywheel is sorted, that's the entire driveline done.

Happy now there is a reason for it and I wasn't going mad after all.

Thanks for the suggestions.

Fingers crossed.

'If I'd asked what people had wanted, they'd have said faster horses....' Henry Ford
#97
PartTimeMK2
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Re: MK2 cortina wagon (estate) in OZ 2024/05/27 15:44:08 (permalink)
+1 (1)
Glad you found the issue, nothing worse than going in circles with that sort of stuff.
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deano
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Re: MK2 cortina wagon (estate) in OZ 2024/05/27 16:39:18 (permalink)
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thanks for posting the solution, you may have saved me the exact same thing!
 
Im going to check my flywheel and starter while they are out, as they are also an untested combo that has only turned over and ran very briefly.
Good effort.
 
 
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martymexico
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Re: MK2 cortina wagon (estate) in OZ 2024/05/27 18:25:55 (permalink)
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Deano, all Pinto flywheels have the same teeth count. Unless some plonka has swapped the ring gear..
It's only the real early Kent motors like pre xflow stuff, so you can rest easy.
deano
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Re: MK2 cortina wagon (estate) in OZ 2024/05/27 19:55:12 (permalink)
+1 (1)
oh jeeze, I forgot Shaun is working on a crossflow.
I blame he was threatening to go Pinto!
 
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escortinadriver
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Re: MK2 cortina wagon (estate) in OZ 2024/05/27 22:30:26 (permalink)
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If i was working on a Pinto it would be driveable by now!!! :)
 
Yep, its still a kent.
 
And yes I was stitched up by it being fitted with the wrong starter...  At least i 'should' be on the right path now.
 
Everyday is a school day.
 
Shaun
 

'If I'd asked what people had wanted, they'd have said faster horses....' Henry Ford
escortinadriver
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Re: MK2 cortina wagon (estate) in OZ 2024/05/28 16:41:36 (permalink)
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OK. So the plot thickens....

After getting home from work this morning, I revisited this again...

And, well.... it would appear that the 110 tooth flywheel is in fact correct for the engine!

For the inertia type starter, which I have, 110 is correct with either 9 (early) or 10 later teeth on the pinion.

Apparently the later 1600s, (escorts) ran with the different 132/135 flywheel and different starters.

The 110 teeth was confirmed by both the ford manual, and of course, Mike at yesterford when I went to get a new ring gear.

So why did mine bind? I don't know. Just worn and unlucky?
As mentioned, it did turn over fine originally....

Anyway, I have purchased a new 110 tooth ring gear from Yesterford and will replace the existing damaged ring gear on my flywheel. I'm really hoping this fixes the problem.

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Drewdog
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Re: MK2 cortina wagon (estate) in OZ 2024/05/28 18:49:38 (permalink)
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Personally I think it'd be cheap insurance to use a nine tooth starter.
If it bound with the ten tooth before and destroyed the ring gear its going to do it again with the shiny new one aswell. 

GT Cortina Project "The Ugly Duckling"
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Re: MK2 cortina wagon (estate) in OZ 2024/06/03 16:36:12 (permalink)
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Went to fit the ring gear, at which point I remembered I'd given away my oxy set a few years ago! Oops. So whilst waiting to get my hands on a torch, I continued with the rear diff.

Everything got a strip down and clean. Bearings 'seemed' OK, so I have left them for now. Brake cylinders weren't leaking, so have also left for now. One bearing had a slight weep, so I'll replace orings and add a thin smear of sealant before refitting.

Diff was inspected, backlash seems fine, there was no signs of weeping through the pinion seal, and all the teeth were good.

Basically, I've cleaned everything up, painted and will refit. If anything leaks, I'll change it then.

Also painted and fitted up the 13x7 steels with some 185/50s I had. Not sure what I'll do with them yet, however, at least fitted to the rims they take up less room.

I'll have to see how they look on the wagon/sedan before the inevitable selling to fund more bits.

Also had another go at the rear springs, realistically they were too low, (at least for rego) so I've repacked them to a more rwc height.

It should all be in soon enough so once the flywheel is done, I can do the exhaust and hopefully it'll move under its own steam.

Good to be back at it. Goal is still to have it driving by thr end of the year however have it well sorted for thr cortina nationals next year.

Shaun




post edited by escortinadriver - 2024/06/03 17:02:09

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