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Sump removal / engine mounts

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P S Robbo
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2017/12/22 17:21:39 (permalink)
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Sump removal / engine mounts

Hi guys,
 2 quick questions 72 V6 Capri.
 Can I remove the sump by itself in the car without the engine to replace the sump gasket?
 I have a 72 V6 and had a 70 V6. Just wondering which way the engine mount metal cups go? On the 70 one the metal cups were on the bottom facing up with the rubber round engine mount inside. On my current 72 V6 the round rubber engine mount is on the bottom with the metal cup facing down over the top of it. Just wanting to know which is correct and does it matter.
  Thank you Paul
#1


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    BEE VEE
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    Re: Sump removal / engine mounts 2017/12/23 11:54:31 (permalink)
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    Hi Paul
    ENG Mt cups sit on top of mounts to protect rubber from extractors heat , and not ship water which they would below.
    I recall very little room between sump and x member so I'm guessing you'd have to loosen both mounts and crane engine up as far as poss if you're feeling lucky, or you think rest of engine is so perfect, you can't justify its removal, which would be rare. If sump only is leaking, the others will leak as soon as you fix sump........ask MURPHY for 2nd opinion !
    BERNIE

    "GOOD BETTER BEST: NEVER LET IT REST: UNTIL YOUR GOOD IS BETTER, AND YOUR BETTER, BEST"
    ( Furphy WW1 HORSE-DRAWN water-tank end-plates)
    #2
    P S Robbo
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    Re: Sump removal / engine mounts 2017/12/23 20:56:02 (permalink)
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    Thanks Bernie,
      You've answered both my questions, at least the cups on my current car are the right way so that saves me a job. 
      There are other slight oil leaks in the engine but thought I would start with the sump. I suppose I'll do them all now.
          Thanking You Paul.
    #3

    gtv6capri
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    Re: Sump removal / engine mounts 2017/12/23 23:07:48 (permalink)
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    V6 sump wont clear the X-member.  You need to disconnect the mounts and lift the engine with a crane.

    Capri The car I always promised myself
    #4
    P S Robbo
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    Re: Sump removal / engine mounts 2017/12/24 11:02:25 (permalink)
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    Thanks all 
    #5
    GTV6
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    Re: Sump removal / engine mounts 2017/12/24 20:23:22 (permalink)
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    My 72 has cups on the bottom.  Given how deep they are maybe they are intended to support the sides of the mounts to minimise how far they deform.
     
    My mechanic tried to do sump gasket by lifting engine but gave up and decided to remove engine.
    #6

    BEE VEE
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    Re: Sump removal / engine mounts 2017/12/24 22:35:02 (permalink)
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    GTV6
    the cups would work up or down if they were there to help minimize rubber deformation; but theyre not.
    Cups on bottom will just promote rust as they fill up with water and debris and do nothing to protect rubber 
    mounts against extractor heat.
    Bernie
     

    "GOOD BETTER BEST: NEVER LET IT REST: UNTIL YOUR GOOD IS BETTER, AND YOUR BETTER, BEST"
    ( Furphy WW1 HORSE-DRAWN water-tank end-plates)
    #7
    GTV6
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    Re: Sump removal / engine mounts 2017/12/27 14:23:24 (permalink)
    +1 (1)
    Heat shields are usually made from a light weight, reflective material and are installed to allow air flow around the item being shielded.  Since these are thick metal, painted black, and are a tight fit over the mount which prevents air flow and would trap heat I very much doubt they have anything to do with heat protection.
     
    I suspect they are the first design iteration of what is now known as an engine mount support cup, which became standard on mk3's and are available from Burtons and others as after market spares.  The current ones are full depth but ours are only half depth so they would have been installed to give the mount support where its needed, which is where the lever arm is the greatest, which is at the cross member end facing up.
     
    Since they are a snug fit, coated and installed at an angle the chance of water ingress and corrosion would be minimal.  The weight of the engine on the mount is causing a tight seal at the bottom.  After 10 years as a daily driver mine didn't have any rust.
     
    If ours were to be installed at the engine end facing down, it would effectively stiffen the top half of the mount making the sheering at the cross member end worse, and if extractor heat was a problem, which based on the distance apart I doubt, they would trap heat and cook the top of the mount.
     
     
     
    #8
    Wiggy333
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    Re: Sump removal / engine mounts 2017/12/27 18:13:51 (permalink)
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    Don’t agree with heat side of your post Gtv6 but the support at the bottom where it’s needed I do. Heat will dissapate either way but forces at the bottom will be greater than up top.
    #9
    GTV6
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    Re: Sump removal / engine mounts 2017/12/27 20:37:00 (permalink)
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    Think about how it cools once the engine is shut down.  If the cup is at the top and has been heated by the extractors, the cup would have to cool before the mount under it starts to cool, so the cup will retain the heat at the mounts surface while it slowly cooks .... I mean cools.
    #10
    Philh
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    Re: Sump removal / engine mounts 2017/12/28 00:20:39 (permalink)
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    Microfiche parts list for 2 litre Mk2 Escorts depicts the cups above the rubber mounts.
    Microfiche parts list for 6 cyl TC/TD Cortinas depicts the same cups below the mounts.
     
    #11
    BEE VEE
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    Re: Sump removal / engine mounts 2017/12/28 11:30:58 (permalink)
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    As Philh has shown; the Cortina app seems to care less which way they go.
     
    The following IMHO are facts that cannot be disputed.....
     
    1/  Water (rain/engine wash) and Debris(gravity) WILL collect with cup at bottom of mount, that wont do on top
     
    2/  Rubber sideways support WILL occur whether cup is at top or bottom
     
    3/   Most importantly.......Torque stress and distortion will be greater at top of rubber mount due
           to smaller surface area of cast iron eng brkt compared to full surface at X-member end,  and thus cup at
           top will provide a "stiffener plate" and even up un-equal surface area support
     
    4/  With engine extractors at their hottest 99% of time while travelling (red to white hot) even with air flow, I feel
         this immense direct heat is better deflected/dissipated with cup at top where MAX heat is radiating for MAX time
     
    5/  Both my Ford 351's have been raced at Sandown with standard engine mounts that never came with any cups
         or devices to prevent distortion or breakage. They have MUCH more torque & power that a V6 Essex. They have 
         both won races and the ORIGINAL stock engine mounts have been there for over 30-35 years.
     
    I've yet to hear on this forum and any other source in the last 45 years that stock un-modified Engines have ever broken
    their mounts on any Capri; cups or no cups...............or that they're trouble-prone.  Please inform me if you've heard different.
     
    One thing I have noticed over the years; the Poms knew how to make an Engine Mount, even if they knew nothing to
    prevent oil leaks !
     
    While on "rubber and heat", it may be a timely reminder to check your HEATER HOSE that runs under RH Extractors between rear of WP and firewall, as it comes VERY close to bothe Engine and Extractor HEAT, albeit relieved with water/coolant within.
    There is an important hose bracket near rear of RH Cyl Head to help keep in place. I believe hose should pass between Block and Dipstick to avoid Extractors on V6 Essex. 
    post edited by BEEVEE - 2017/12/28 11:54:54

    "GOOD BETTER BEST: NEVER LET IT REST: UNTIL YOUR GOOD IS BETTER, AND YOUR BETTER, BEST"
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    #12
    GTV6
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    Re: Sump removal / engine mounts 2017/12/28 16:11:18 (permalink)
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    Oh I see, mounts didn't split or excessively distort so these were needed to stop the mounts from melting due to the white/red hot extractors encountered during day to day driving conditions.....in the UK, but for some reason they didn't melt on a V8 race car, but even more bizarre is that heat was such a problem on the humble escort that heat shielding was required to stop its mounts melting,  and strangely the Cortina also had a heat problem but at the bottom of the mount.  And the heat problem was so bad in the UK that on the mk3's they increased their size to cover the whole mount, and continued to paint them in the most heat conductive colour...black.
     
    They are support cups, have nothing to do with heat shielding and should be installed where they offer the most support.  They were obviously inadequate and were subsequently upgraded.  To give the proper support they really should be replaced with full depth after market cups.
    #13
    old capri v6
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    Re: Sump removal / engine mounts 2017/12/28 17:27:03 (permalink)
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    English Car = English Language
    Is it a Cup? or  a Cap?
    Maybe the answer was in the original question.
     
    #14
    Wiggy333
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    Re: Sump removal / engine mounts 2017/12/28 17:34:45 (permalink)
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    The mounts at top are smaller but bottom mount would take the most movement. Because both are fixed the most stress will be achieved in the middle. So by it’s design it shouldn’t matter. The cup doesn’t touch the mount by the way defeating both arguments.
    #15
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