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Changing back to 4 speed

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2014/12/07 00:42:43 (permalink)
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Changing back to 4 speed

One of the first things I noticed after installing the Type 9 was slower acceleration. I'm guessing this is due to both the extra weight of the box and more rotating mass on the mainshaft?
 
Anyway, it's made that much of a difference that I'm considering putting the 4 speed back in. And also changing the diff gears to 3.54, a ratio that I haven't tried yet. 
 
At the moment it's 4.125. What a wasted exercise that was.
Previous was 3.77 which I liked and suspect might be going back in after trying the 3.54. I used the 3.77 with the four speed and the car felt really quick. My camshaft is Crow Mild street so lots of torque down low. I'm hoping this will help with the gap between 1st and 2nd when the 3.54 is installed.
 
Any thoughts???
 
EOI in the type 9 and 4.125 diff gears are welcome. The box is in perfect order and 4.125 has just been serviced by a reputable diff specialist.
 
 
#1


25 Replies Related Threads

    PeterM
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    Re: Changing back to 4 speed 2014/12/07 07:43:34 (permalink)
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    Extremely strange about the slower acceleration.
    The minimal extra weight of the Type 9 definitely wouldn't have a noticeable affect.
    Have you checked each of the gear ratios for each gear and compared with the original gearbox gear ratios?
     
    #2
    ratta tat tat
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    Re: Changing back to 4 speed 2014/12/07 10:32:48 (permalink)
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    Hi Peter
    The type 9 is a 4cyl Sierra box so ratios are same as the four speed + overdrive.
    I can notice the most subtle differences in the car when it comes to weight, such as alloy wheels compared to steel.
    I think the T9 is about 10kg heavier than the 4 speed?
     
    #3

    Flighter
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    Re: Changing back to 4 speed 2014/12/07 11:43:13 (permalink)
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    I read that the 4 speedbx is 22kg and that the type 9 weighs 11 kgs more:
     
    http://www.type9gearbox.co.uk/type-9-history.html
     
     
     

    WTB: Recaro seat - any condition considered
     
     
    #4
    troppo
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    Re: Changing back to 4 speed 2014/12/07 13:07:39 (permalink)
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    I cant see 11 kg`s making that much difference, i`d check the gearing if i was you
     
    #5
    harrier
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    Re: Changing back to 4 speed 2014/12/07 13:19:52 (permalink)
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    You're running a 1600 aren't you I think ?  If so I'm not sure you're going to like the 3.54 too much.  I'm a real fan of the Kent motors and have them in both of my Escorts (thats a 1600 in my profile pic) with no plans to change.  But they're no torque monster.  I wouldn't go near a 3.54 without a 2 litre up front.  
     
    As to the first/second gap not sure there is much you can do short of putting in a Rocket box but then you're initial take off will be slower, once moving they are great and that gap disappears, first gear becomes useful again.
     
    I really would have thought the 4.1 and Sierra box would have been an awesome combination.  I didn't realise the weight difference between the 4 and 5 speed was so much.  Bear in mind that the extra 11 kg's isn't all going to be in rotating parts, some is going to be the case, etc.
    #6

    ratta tat tat
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    Re: Changing back to 4 speed 2014/12/07 13:57:17 (permalink)
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    130bhp pinto
    #7
    Flighter
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    Re: Changing back to 4 speed 2014/12/07 14:49:05 (permalink)
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    You can get them with a taller first gear in the UK:
     
    http://www.bghgeartech.co.uk/html/4_speed.html
     
    Just don't look at the price!
    post edited by Flighter - 2014/12/07 18:49:11

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    #8
    SFE
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    Re: Changing back to 4 speed 2014/12/07 15:19:55 (permalink)
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    Your slower acceleration doesn't make sense, in that a standard 4cylinder/petrol application T9 has exactly the same ratios as a standard type E 4 speed (3.65,1.97,1.37 & 1.00, 5th =0.82). It is true that the weight penalty is an additional 11kgs over the 4 spd 22kgs but I doubt it would be noticeable. I assume the 4spd box you are talking about is the single rail type E.  Have you determined the 1st gear ratio? You don't have a Ford 4spd rocket box (2.54 1st)? Or you don't have another T9 variant? Diesel  T9(3.91 1st) with a modified input shaft which would be terrible behind a small engine or modified Capri T9? 
    When you say slower acceleration do you mean in each gear or overall through the gears? People do fit a modified version of the Capri 2.8i box (modified input shaft again) to get the taller 1st gear(3.36) but that has slightly taller 2nd & 3rd gears (1.81 & 1.26) so acceleration within 2nd or 3rd gear will be slightly slower.
    SFE
    #9
    ratta tat tat
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    Re: Changing back to 4 speed 2014/12/07 15:56:38 (permalink)
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    Yes, all the same ratios as a 4 speed. Slower acceleration as in 0.3 second over 400m
    #10
    ratta tat tat
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    Re: Changing back to 4 speed 2014/12/07 16:00:33 (permalink)
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    I raced the car with the 4 speed and got a 16.22 sec 1/4, then put in the 5 speed 16.5sec. 3.77 diff gears. Several runs with each box so I know these results are conclusive
    post edited by ratta tat tat - 2014/12/07 16:07:08
    #11
    PeterM
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    Re: Changing back to 4 speed 2014/12/07 21:46:05 (permalink)
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    I am assuming you have actually checked (ie stuck your head in there) the T9 gear ratios in YOUR gearbox, not just reading technical documentation which is often of a general nature.
     
    With the change to the 4.125 diff ratio the super short standard Escort first gear will run out of puff much faster than with the 3.77 and especially the 3.54 ratios. Same with the second gear. If your engine is producing 130HP, torque will also be increased. So the engine wants to work because of the extra torque, but can't apply the torque correctly with the shorter diff ratio. So the solution is to change the gear ratios, either in the gearbox, or the diff, or even maybe both. A change in wheel diameter can also help a lot.
     
    I turbocharged my RS2000 in 1985 and retained the 4 speed gearbox and the 13 inch wheels. Acceleration and cruising effort and the entire characteristics of the car changed when I fitted a 2.72:1 diff. The car went from being just "fast" to "a weapon" that none of my friends with modified V8's could touch. The secret was in the gearing.
     
    Three years ago I changed the diff ratio of my stock standard 1979 1600 Escort panel van from 3.77 to 3.54. The car is my daily driver. Even with good loads and a full tank of fuel going up hills there is more than enough power. The benefit is longer legs, reduced in car noise levels and much improved fuel economy. I am a fan of longer legs on street cars.
    #12
    ratta tat tat
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    Re: Changing back to 4 speed 2014/12/07 23:24:31 (permalink)
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    Fantastic info there Peter. I really like the taller gearing as well. And a 3.54 should be fine on freeways with 4 speed box. Around 2800rpm, not that the car spends a lot of time on freeways. After reading the above I'm looking forwards to running the 3.54. Thanks very much
    #13
    79Escort
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    Re: Changing back to 4 speed 2014/12/08 00:58:32 (permalink)
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    If you want to use the car cruising at higher speeds often you will probably like the 3.54 however i much rathered the 3.77. I run a 2L with around the same power (probably a touch less) and 205/60r13 rear tyres. Also standard 4 speed.
     
    I dont do much long distance driving at higher speeds so I dont mind doing extra revs. Also I do a bit of track work and hillclimbs where I want the extra revs at a given speed.
     
    Car is much more lively with 3.77 than 3.54. It is noticably faster. Will be instaling a 3.9 with lsd (not sure if 3.9 is accurate but there-abouts) soon to give better track performance and no doubt will be screaming when cruising at 100km/h.
     
    A shorter diff ratio will no doubt compromise economy and high speed cruising comfort. Even though my car is daily driven I feel its much more important for it to be more responsive on the street and quicker at the track than save a couple extra $$$ when I fill up.
     
    Ultimately it depends what you want the car to do
     
    Cheers,
    Ryan
    #14
    Gdub
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    Re: Changing back to 4 speed 2014/12/08 08:43:12 (permalink)
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    it accelerates slower and you want to go from a 4.125 to a 3.54 diff?  Thats backwards man, it will be significantly slower on acceleration with a 3.54

    Make it go FASTER!
     
    #15
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