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To Zetec or not to Zetec

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Wozzah
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Re:To Zetec or not to Zetec 2012/11/23 17:09:17 (permalink)
+1 (1)
TEX

If the topic reads to zetec or not to zetec, your obviously keen on the idea then I say Go the zetec!
We can debate how great the old pinto is and how rubbish the zetec is all day long.
In closing I'll offer some observations:
Outright power in worked form: winner - debatable (I think Zetec but better not upset the pinto tragics)
Hands down both engines in modified form the zetec is better without a doubt
Comparing stock motors to worked motors: pointless
Was the whole point of the thread, read the OP's link.  Was comparing STD zetec to modified Pinto and the disappointment. Very relevant if thats what you're planning to do with your car.
Total cost: Winner - debatable
It has been well covered in other threads by the time its all said and done costs are very similar.  Alot comes down to the expertise of the individual carrying out the work, but definately on a par with each other
Dollars per Hp - Zetec
If not factoring in costs of the conversion and other issues, yes.  Otherwise no
Weight: Zetec
Replacement cost: Winner - Pinto (people give them away)
A good pinto is actually getting hard to find, on a par as well.  They're both around for $50 if you're preppared to hunt around
Most cams - Zetec
Most Valves - Zetec
Most modern - Zetec
Most overated - Pinto



 
I never said either was rubbish, they both suit a purpose and at the end of the day it's up to the individual to decide what they like.  I have 2 healthy Zetec builds on the go at the moment, and I'm very much looking forward to the results.
I think it's good the OP has pointed out the mistake that the link covers.  If you have a Pinto making good horsepower (I would suggest 160ish hp) and you are going to replace it with a std Zetec with the thought it's going to perform heaps better you're wrong.
 
Woz
 
 

Mk1 RS2000 replica (IP hillclimb car) fitted with Ford Laser 1.8 DOHC (BP) Cossy cams, Webers, 230hp
EB XR8 5sp, heads, cam, extractors.
http://www.facebook.com/p...rmance/135194779879292
#31
TEX
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Re:To Zetec or not to Zetec 2012/11/27 06:57:25 (permalink)
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Woz,
I think you have your hand on it, most people DONT realise any where near 160 rwhp with a pinto, if your talking flywheel then its probably not that common either. NOT impossible for sure. But for most of the cars that I have seen on the dyno, that people call 'worked' 'warm' or 'hot' and have spent in the 5k region. The performance yes, I am talking performance not power. IS near identical to a stock 1.8 zetec.
Maybe your super great at building pintos, but I dont see any power figures on the brag board from your hands. I'll throw that towel in the ring. 
So instead of being an antogonist, how about accepting my experience for what it is.
Pretty sure in the OP he says the performance is 'not better',  I read this as being about the same power, but uses less fuel. I call that better performing.  So for average Joe who replaces his warm, hot or worked pinto he can and should expect better PERFORMANCE. Another thing to note is he doesn't say how 'worked' his old pinto is so is it a typical warm engine or a super woz model?
#32
Wozzah
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Re:To Zetec or not to Zetec 2012/11/27 14:38:40 (permalink)
+1 (1)
TEX

Woz,
I think you have your hand on it, most people DONT realise any where near 160 rwhp with a pinto, if your talking flywheel then its probably not that common either. NOT impossible for sure. But for most of the cars that I have seen on the dyno, that people call 'worked' 'warm' or 'hot' and have spent in the 5k region. The performance yes, I am talking performance not power. IS near identical to a stock 1.8 zetec.
Maybe your super great at building pintos, but I dont see any power figures on the brag board from your hands. I'll throw that towel in the ring. 
So instead of being an antogonist, how about accepting my experience for what it is.
Pretty sure in the OP he says the performance is 'not better',  I read this as being about the same power, but uses less fuel. I call that better performing.  So for average Joe who replaces his warm, hot or worked pinto he can and should expect better PERFORMANCE. Another thing to note is he doesn't say how 'worked' his old pinto is so is it a typical warm engine or a super woz model?

 
Whats with the personal attack?  At the end of the day based on YOUR experience the power results are similar, based on MINE they're not.  I know others that can back my findings, you probably know others that can back up yours.  No need to get personal.  Just because I don't brag about my results on a forum means nothing.  I prefer to let actions speak louder than words, so have a chat to a few people I've done engines for, I perhaps have a bit better look.  Or if you'd like I can post up some dyno charts, specs and flow figures.  What ever floats your boat.
 
I posted here because I would hate for someone to spend a bucket load of money on a conversion and be disappointed with the results.  Obviously you would need a direct performance comparison to what was in there to begin with before you even considered it.  
 
At the end of the day it's an opinion.  I really don't care what people do.  I still stand by my original statement that unless you want 190+ horspower and nice "all round" performance you just wouldn't bother with the conversion.
 
Cheers
Woz
post edited by Wozzah - 2012/11/27 14:51:28

Mk1 RS2000 replica (IP hillclimb car) fitted with Ford Laser 1.8 DOHC (BP) Cossy cams, Webers, 230hp
EB XR8 5sp, heads, cam, extractors.
http://www.facebook.com/p...rmance/135194779879292
#33

ratta tat tat
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Re:To Zetec or not to Zetec 2012/11/27 15:16:06 (permalink)
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Wozzah
I posted here because I would hate for someone to spend a bucket load of money on a conversion and be disappointed with the results. 
Cheers
Woz



#34
the_cheese
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Re:To Zetec or not to Zetec 2012/11/27 16:40:26 (permalink)
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Heaps going on here... good to get some input from people who have gone down both roads.
 
Wozzah what sort of specs are you talking about when talking 'healthy' Pinto builds that have 30-40hp more on a Zetec? Massive cam with poor lowdown torque??
#35
Matt75
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Re:To Zetec or not to Zetec 2012/11/27 16:48:05 (permalink)
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Check out Wozzah's engine build threads in the Engine section
 
Matt

 
My 4 door MK II Resto
http://www.classic-ford.org/cfp/tm.aspx?m=37623

RS Owners Club Victoria Committee Member - http://rsocvic.com/
 
 
#36

the_cheese
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Re:To Zetec or not to Zetec 2012/11/27 17:05:13 (permalink)
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thanks for the tip!
#37
peterr
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Re:To Zetec or not to Zetec 2012/11/27 17:48:13 (permalink)
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I very rarely post and have learned through previous experience and reading these threads to read and learn rather then add.
In saying that I feel I am in a perfect position to add some facts, and at the risk of breaking my own rules and dealing with the usual consequences, here is some support for Wozzah.
I have two red RS2000 Escorts in my garage, both have Wozzah's input. (put simply, experienced, reasonable, easy to deal with, and awesome results)
One a nice street car with a zetec, 45mm throttle bodies, custom extractors and exhaust, biggest hydraulic cams, rod bolts and motec. 
The other is a track car driven to the track - healthy pinto built by Wozzah.    By healthy I mean, 45mm DCOE's, rods, pistons, headwork, valves, cam, etc.
Zetec - 110kw at the wheels, Pinto 123KW at the wheels - same dyno. (the final figure does not matter for those that want to dispute it, it is more for comparison, and for those that do want to dispute it, before you do, be prepared to bring you car to a dyno or a track on the same day to compare)(sorry I am not trying to big note, just tired of the bull**** on forums, hope everyone can understand)
Now - the pinto is more then drivable but it is not as nice to drive on the street as the zetec, much has to do with the Zetec being injected (I believe so anyway) and being masked by nicer suspension, heavier flywheel, no roll cage, being a tighter car, etc.
The pinto also has a 4.11 instead of a 3.77 so there is a difference in the way it "feels" there too.
 
Now in terms of cost.
Zetec - I completed my conversion all of ten years ago with the help of some great friends - I chose not to go too cheap but some of the things you have to consider is ignition, engine mounts, cooling system, flywheel and clutch, fuel supply, extractors and exhaust, induction, brake cylinder and booster location, etc.
 
Pinto - from scratch, ie; no engine or parts to start with, you will need the following: block and head including machining, oil pump, rods, pistons, bearings, gaskets, bolt kit, flywheel & clutch, dizzy, leads, extractors, exhaust, valves and valve gear, cam and cam wheel, inlet manifold, webers, ram tubes, filters, sump, etc, all modified- all of $10K easily - adds up quick.  then there is the fuel supply, possibly an oil cooler, better radiator, acc cable set up, etc.
I think the cost is negligible between the two depending on what your experience, ability and contacts are, - most things you need for both.
 
Both are 2 lt engines, both have restrictions of their own, there is cossies of YB and BD series to consider, then off course SR, BP, etc, but - it's what you are looking for or want to achieve  and what budget / ability you have that matters most - my opinion, I am quite happy with both.  Any of these engines will not suddenly feel like a jet engine or a big block not even a stock cossie or SR.  The potential of some is greater then others but usually comes with a cost, compromise and reliability in some cases. 
 
Just my two cents worth, I hope my typed message is received the way it is intended.
PMR
P.S.
A worked Zetec is in the works.
 
 
 
 
 
post edited by peterr - 2012/11/27 17:51:48
#38
Gdub
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Re:To Zetec or not to Zetec 2012/11/27 18:52:29 (permalink)
0
TEX

Woz,
I think you have your hand on it, most people DONT realise any where near 160 rwhp with a pinto, if your talking flywheel then its probably not that common either. NOT impossible for sure. But for most of the cars that I have seen on the dyno, that people call 'worked' 'warm' or 'hot' and have spent in the 5k region. The performance yes, I am talking performance not power. IS near identical to a stock 1.8 zetec.
Maybe your super great at building pintos, but I dont see any power figures on the brag board from your hands. I'll throw that towel in the ring. 
So instead of being an antogonist, how about accepting my experience for what it is.
Pretty sure in the OP he says the performance is 'not better',  I read this as being about the same power, but uses less fuel. I call that better performing.  So for average Joe who replaces his warm, hot or worked pinto he can and should expect better PERFORMANCE. Another thing to note is he doesn't say how 'worked' his old pinto is so is it a typical warm engine or a super woz model?

 
Ok, im in ...
 
One of the pinto's Wozzah was referring to in an earlier post is mine. Forged pistons, Spool rods, balanced and a heap of head work running 48IDF's. Made 128 RWkw (171RWHP) and has been running in my track car now for 3 full seasons of more than 10 events each year and is still as strong as the day it was built!
 
I would say YES he certainly does know how to build a strong, powerful pinto.  I'm more than happy to put that on the brag board if that will help you feel better
 
 

Make it go FASTER!
 
#39
Wozzah
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Re:To Zetec or not to Zetec 2012/11/27 19:25:28 (permalink)
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the_cheese

Heaps going on here... good to get some input from people who have gone down both roads.

Wozzah what sort of specs are you talking about when talking 'healthy' Pinto builds that have 30-40hp more on a Zetec? Massive cam with poor lowdown torque??

 
I would class a "healthy" pinto as one making 180-190 or more horsepower.  To get those figures does require a big cam, and typically a sacrifice in low end torque.  (there are threads on my engine builds on here somewhere)
However, that is not the end of the story.  If you put thought into the cylinder head design and hang ons you can still make the engine very drivable even with a large cam.  A mistake that is very common with alot of the engine builds I see is that the match of bits and pieces attached are tuned for top end power, as is the cylinder head design, or the combination of parts is mismatched and that makes them a complete pig down low.  By using the right combination of bits low end drivability can be retained with little or no decrease in top end power.  I will wait for some of the guys I build engines for to comment, but a common statement I get is "that considering the size of the cam that the engines still remain very drivable".
 
Probably what I should do which is right on topic with the thread is explain why a Pinto can be made give similar power, fuel economy, relaibility AND drivabilty to a STD Zetec.  Comparing 160hp builds (flywheel).  I think we can all agree a STD silvertop Zetec is around the 160hp mark with the right hang ons.
For a start the comp ratio on the Pinto is higher than the Zetec, that works in favour of the Pinto.
 
Whilst the cams in the Zetec are much tamer than what is required in the Pinto there is more to factor in.  The opening and closing ramps as a general rule on twin cam engines are far less aggressive than 2 valve engines.  There is an excellent Vizard article on comparing 2 valve vs 4 valve applications which goes in depth about the differences, but I can't locate it.  Basically you can duplicate the characteristics of port flow by using more aggressive ramps on the 2 valve set up.  Obviously you can apply the same to a multivalve and better it again, but thats not what we're talking about here.  We're talking about duplicating the characteristics STD multivalve to modified 2 valve. 
 
The next thing is the cylinder head.  In STD form the Zetec is a dog (interestingly enough the ST170 isn't much better, but thats another story!), and with clever porting a Pinto head can be made to work quite well, even at low lift which is good for low end power.
By using a clever cylinder head/cam package flow can be dulicated pretty comfortably without being over the top in the camshaft area. 
Typically one of my 160hp Pintos will make power from 2500-6500, and if you compare that to a STD Zetec it's not alot different. 
 
Constant punishment on a Pinto requires decent rods and Pistons, where as the STD stuff in the Zetec is pretty good.
 
In terms of fuel economy it comes down to the tune.  Geared correctly and tuned correctly there shouldn't be alot of difference between the 2, especially on highway cycle.
 
As for upkeep, about the only thing that is different between the 2 is the Hydraulic lifters on the Zetec as opposed to the manual ones on the Pinto.  Apart from that both are pretty similar.
 
When I get a chance I will plot directly over one another a Dyno run from a Zetec compared to the equiv Pinto and post it up here.
 
Cheers
Woz
 

Mk1 RS2000 replica (IP hillclimb car) fitted with Ford Laser 1.8 DOHC (BP) Cossy cams, Webers, 230hp
EB XR8 5sp, heads, cam, extractors.
http://www.facebook.com/p...rmance/135194779879292
#40
Matt75
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Re:To Zetec or not to Zetec 2012/11/28 12:04:13 (permalink)
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Wow, if a "healthy" Pinto is 180 - 190 what power would a "crazy" one have?
 
Matt

 
My 4 door MK II Resto
http://www.classic-ford.org/cfp/tm.aspx?m=37623

RS Owners Club Victoria Committee Member - http://rsocvic.com/
 
 
#41
ratta tat tat
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Re:To Zetec or not to Zetec 2012/11/28 13:17:44 (permalink)
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Matt75

Wow, if a "healthy" Pinto is 180 - 190 what power would a "crazy" one have?

Matt

http://www.streetfire.net/video/andy-harris_41238.htm 
 
#42
CuttBack
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Re:To Zetec or not to Zetec 2012/11/28 13:58:25 (permalink)
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ratta tat tat

Matt75

Wow, if a "healthy" Pinto is 180 - 190 what power would a "crazy" one have?

Matt

http://www.streetfire.net/video/andy-harris_41238.htm 


 
That is insane!
#43
TEX
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Re:To Zetec or not to Zetec 2012/11/28 15:51:54 (permalink)
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Not intending to get personal, really I think we agree, but at the end of the day MOST  hot pintos do not match zetecs. I say most, cause I have not seen many more punching above the figures you and I have experience with. Sure they are out there but they are in the vast minority. As evidenced by the brag board.
At the end of the day unless you have some Idea on how healthy your pinto is the zetec may or may not disapoint. Something old mate never makes clear in the Original link.
It all comes down to dollars and experience as to whether it's worth it. 
#44
CamMk1
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Re:To Zetec or not to Zetec 2013/01/23 20:54:46 (permalink)
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Oh boy. When I came to this forum I wanted an SR20, then I looked at Zetecs, now back to Pinto's, and back to Zetecs. Now I have no idea what I want :(
#45
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