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2012/04/17 20:01:35
Wozzah

Call to Aussie car makers: Need for Ford and Holden to build a basic family car.

Lately it seems that so many Aussie icons are closing their doors and going bankrupt.  It's no secret that Ford and Holden are both finding it very difficult in the market place with so many imports readily available.
 
It has been proven time and time again that we like large 6 cylinder rear wheel drive vehicles as a family car.  Manufacturers such as Mitsubishi (with the 380) and Toyota (with the Avalon) have tried their crack at the market with large front wheel drive cars with little success, in fact very unsuccessfully.
 
Both Ford and Holden are guilty of investing money in Crappy imports from overseas which have hurt them badly.  The Ford Territory is a classic example of how Aussie's love Australian enginuity, and it was a huge success.  Why?  Because it was back to basics, and based on a vehicle that has been tried and proven, the good old fashioned Aussie way.  It outsold its American brother the Explorer by heap, and was a much better vehicle.  We have proved in the past that we make some of the best cars in the world right here. 
 
What are we doing wrong now?
 
The Korean market however is booming, and to be perfectly honest are standing the test of time.  Everyone bagged the Hyundia and Kia branded vehicles when they first landed, but they're still there and going stronger than ever.
 
It lead me to a bit of thinking. 
 
Somewhere along the line Ford and Holden have lost the plot. 
 
Everything in even the basic vehicles now is over complicated with some highly technical electronic "module" or "controller" right down to even the most basic items.  Things like climate control, accelerator control and interior lamp operation have all become, for want of better wording, a headf#@k.  Basic operations that have worked simply and faultlessly for 100 years are replaced by items that are not only complicated, but also expensive, unreliable and a head ache if something goes wrong.
 
Suspension systems are now overcomplicated, have substancially more wearing components and are really of no benefit to "average Joe) over much simpler systems.  They don't work any better and add unwanted weight and stress to the vehicle.  The unwanted weight also stresses the brake system, and we're seeing more pad and rotor wear now than we ever have.  When you look at how much a standard Commodore or Falcon weighs now it's scary.
 
The only real area I can see the technology getting better and moving forward is in Engine, transmission and Engine management  and safety areas.  Where the technology is providing a service in returning good fuel economy, drivability and most importantly safety.
 
There is a need for Ford and Holden to do a basic car.  One that still has all the engine, transmission and safety features, but hasn't got all the crap to go with it.  Basic cable controls and switches, no overcomplicated electronics and features.  Simple suspension systems.  The Koreans and others have been doing it for years with huge success, so why can't we?  Surely it would bring the price down.  I can't imagine that an accerator cable costs more to manufacture than all the electronic components involved in making it electronic?  Same goes with the rest of the systems with these types of units.
 
There is also a need for a common drive line, like the success story with the Territory.  By all means import things like the Transit Van, but as a rolling shell.  Fit it out with our driveline over here instead of the nightmares we get off shore.  Find some Diesel Technology and make it common to the larger vehicle as well.
 
By all means keep importing brilliant vehicles like the Focus/fiesta range, but I certainly don't want to be seeing any more Taurus, Cougar, Probe, Explorer type vehicles.
 
End Rant!
 
Woz
 
 

Mk1 RS2000 replica (IP hillclimb car) fitted with Ford Laser 1.8 DOHC (BP) Cossy cams, Webers, 230hp
EB XR8 5sp, heads, cam, extractors.
http://www.facebook.com/p...rmance/135194779879292
17 comments Leave a comment
shepv8
car companies build what people buy. End of story. Once upon a time an Aussie prided him or herself on having a falcon or kingswood in the driveway ( a time when the term jap crap and riceburner were prevalent). Now all people care about is getting "a deal". Reality is, only a handfull of car buyers in this country want a big rear wheel drive car. Look at the current falcon, its dirt cheap and has every aspect ( except its hefty weight ) covered, even getting pretty good economy these days BUT, people are still buying honda euro's, and hyundai i30's and toyota corolla's by the ship full. Every time I go to a V8 supercar race most of the supporters in their HRT/FPV gear jump into their toyota camrys and drive home. Not to mention that petrol is now  getting a little too close to the $2 a litre mark. How many people do you reckon would buy a car without all the niceties ( air, cruise, extensive noise/vibration insulation ). Certainly not enough to cover production costs let alone make a profit. Our best bet is for ford Oz and the US  to build and share the generic platforms which we stick our interior and sheetmetal onto ie. new mustang/falcon. Of course the soaring dollar only makes imported cars all the cheaper , just ask anyone who's bought a flatscreen tv lately .....the same thing goes  for cars
2012/04/17 20:45:10
RS 2000
I agree with shep. Average joe doesn't really give a sh.. if the car has a throttle cable or whether suspension is complex or not, average joe wants a good deal. I have always hated Korean cars based on experience mainly ( many years of eperience on all makes and models )but looks also, but these Korean cars have got much better lately both mechanically and in the looks department(personally still not a fan) So for as long as an average joe can get a cheap,fuel efficient car with a long warranty period these cars will continue to increase in popularity. It's this situation that forces our local companies to import cheaper crap to try and compete and continue sales.

Unfortunately with advancements in driveline control, safety features and emissions wouldn't be possible without all the on board electronics, although I agree some things should have been kept simpler mechanical devices, in reality it is just as cheap for manufacturers to electronically control just about everything.

I think we are probably very lucky with the fact that we can still buy a decent rwd sedan that comes in many different flavours from both Ford and Holden camps.
2012/04/17 23:03:14
Wozzah
RS 2000

I agree with shep. Average joe doesn't really give a sh.. if the car has a throttle cable or whether suspension is complex or not, average joe wants a good deal. I have always hated Korean cars based on experience mainly ( many years of eperience on all makes and models )but looks also, but these Korean cars have got much better lately both mechanically and in the looks department(personally still not a fan) So for as long as an average joe can get a cheap,fuel efficient car with a long warranty period these cars will continue to increase in popularity. It's this situation that forces our local companies to import cheaper crap to try and compete and continue sales.

Unfortunately with advancements in driveline control, safety features and emissions wouldn't be possible without all the on board electronics, although I agree some things should have been kept simpler mechanical devices, in reality it is just as cheap for manufacturers to electronically control just about everything.

I think we are probably very lucky with the fact that we can still buy a decent rwd sedan that comes in many different flavours from both Ford and Holden camps.

 
That is exactly my point.  Average Joe doesn't give a s@#t about the throttle or anything else, as long as it works, so why spend a fortune and make it electronic?  Just use a cable and be done with it.  Same with heater controls etc, why do you need a computer and god know how many motors and electronics to move a flap?  Why does the interior light (amongst other simple things) need to be controlled by a module as well as a switch?  Why do the seats need to be electronic and have motors to adjust them?.  Same with suspension, average Joe wouldn't know the difference between IRS and a standard live axle, so why not delete all the arms, bushes, complicated arrangements and crap and use a simpler set up?
 
All this stuff costs extra money.  Why not make one with the same features, but without all the crap to control it.  Imagine if your average Falcon or Commodore was $5000+ cheaper, that may change your way of thinking, and may change the ball game as far as sales are concerned as well. 
 
Woz
2012/04/18 00:03:16
Phil
The problem with leaving all the wizz bang technology out of cars to make them cheaper is that it will actually make them more expensive...contrary to what we are told...it is far cheaper to produce fly by wire/abs/vdc/srs etc than anyone will ever know, and given the fact that most onboard systems these days are dependant on each other none of them can be discarded without the other, Once you have a car with no safety features the average joe who isnt intereseted in spec will listen to the media bag it out then wont buy it.

The main issue with manufacturing in Oz is labour cost/operating expenses compared to our asian neighbours. Secondary to that, Australian and American cars for that matter are just no where near the build, material and longevity quality of the Japanese and more recently the Koreans. Funny as it may be...our local Commodores all run Daewoo wiring harnesses and Clusters from what the Holden boys tell me...even the SS/HSV flagships!! 
 
From my own experience, the issues with quality are more evident at 200000+kms...put a 300000km Falcon or Commodore beside a 300000km old Subaru. The Falcon and Commodore are wrecking yard material, The Subaru still drives like a new car...that is the issue with Aussie cars.
 
 
2012/04/18 09:47:21
Paul Dunstan
As Phil pointed out the labour content is a MAJOR contributor.
For example our clients can purchace 2 locomotives from China for the price they pay for one of ours and a big factor is labour content. It's not all that straight forward but thats a HUGE carrot to the customer bean counters and a BIG gamble if you want to rely on the unknown product. It's early days yet but if the new Chinese product can out perform our locally built (albeit American hardware) then we're also screwed! But that's what it's come too and if the Aus market is going to compete it needs to be smarter as it's impossible now days to demand a premium $$ for a locally better built product because frankly they're not!
For example - we looked at the Territotry but back then the TX RWD was only available with the older 5spd tranny and it was far inferior to the 6spd box available in the XR6 turbo etc. This is one of the reasons (apart fro incl accessories and build quality) that we chose the Toyota Kluger. For all my reluctance to buy a Toyota I must say it has exceeded all my expectations. Now all the big Fords including the base XT Falcon has the 6spd box!
Which brings me onto my next discussion - fuel. I have recieved a company car recently which is the base Flacon XT EcoLPi (dedicated LPG). I must admit I was a little sceptical at first but after driving it for 1000+kms I must say it's a good thing - comfortable and plenty of poke! It's actually claimed to have more power and torque than the petrol version also. Based on the current consumption (14L/100km) it's only approximately 25% cheaper to fill (than it's Petrol equivalent) which is a little below what Ford claims but it's still not in the same ball park as a Toyota Prius - but a Prius (or Corrolla for that matter) would not adequately pull our caravan! I'm yet to see the consumption towing the van but as fuel $$ is not a consideration I just hope I can limp it to the next bowser! It's all what suits your purpose as the running and depriciation costs are more of a consideration than loyalty these days!
And on technology - irrespective of it's costs or advantages it's all a marketing spin. Everyone wants to get as much for the hard earned $$ so the more technology is crammed in the better percieved value for money irrespective of reliability. Hell, ABS was once introduced as a key advancement and now everything has it! And in all honesty I consider the current motor vehicle to be exceptional value for money considering the advancements in technology and safety. For example the current WRX is a similar price to the original one sold back in 1995!
I recon this thread would be up there as the highest character to post ratio ever!!!
2012/04/18 11:18:39
Phil
It basically comes down to a joint responsibility between us(society) and our government. We want maximum income and minimum spend...what more can be said:)
 
On the WRX...the base model is still the same price as the MY94 model that came out in late 1993!! $39995!! Nearly 20 years at the same price...although the Aussie $$ has contributed to making that possible:)
2012/04/18 12:17:33
shepv8
yeah, the asian countries turn up to work in thongs, and work for $20 a day, no sick pay, no cigarette breaks, no compo. You get injured at work and someone else will jump in your spot for a chance at $20 a day. Bit hard to compete with that minimalistic lifestyle.
 I remember when hyundai had their big push on excels all those years ago. People got sucked into the hype not because it was a good car but because the appeal of owning a brand new car for $14000 ( in some cases less) was waaaaay too much to resist. I remember laughing at everyone who bought one but all these years later evryone who owned them drove them into the ground without any fuss , they didnt cost a cent to run and were backed by a 5 year/100000km warranty. Now our Aussie cars are always behind the times when it comes to innovations, we are playing catchup to the asian stuff with every new model and those mazda ( the original "jap crap" cars)and  "crappy hyundais" are regurlarly winning car of the year awards...........still love V8 falcons though!!!!
2012/04/18 17:21:41
Scott
I currently own a AU2 Falcon which I've done 26,000km with and frankly, its going to be the first and last Aussie built car I will own. It's just has some problem every so often, parts of the body falling off and both of the remote lockers working when they want to being the most recent. But saying that it has been mechanically reliable for the most part. I've spent decent amounts of time driving Euro and Jap cars and never had things like that happen.
2012/04/19 00:19:12
fehlbie
I have only ever had good experiences with Ford Falcons and my wifes focus. My last falcon a 2004 BA Falcon XT had an appetite for headlamp globes, but other than that never skipped a beat, everything worked even after 120,000kms and my heavy right foot. My 2008 FG XR6 Turbo has had the left hand indicator lens replaced twice and all six ignition coils replaced, other than that she has been a gem even at 87,000kms. My wifes ford focus had done 90,000kms and it never had an issue until someone ran into the back of it at 70km/h in a ford escape. my wife got whiplash and my son who was a baby in the back at the time didn't even get a scratch. On the other hand my wifes new car a 2008 Subaru Forester XT has crapped a gearbox and anti roll bar linkages. 
On another rant, all I can say is if you want an A to B car, then your Japanese / Asian car makers make wonderful boring as, beige cars. I would rather have my balls clamped in a vice than drive them, but I think that I am of one of the few people left that enjoy a spirited drive in a car that handles and accelerates faster than an iceberg, without spending retarded amounts of money to do so. Toyota, mazda, kia, hyundi, daewoo, mitsubishi (except the Evo's) and even Subaru (sorry Phil, maybe the BRZ when it is released) don't have anything in there ranges to get excited about. Whereas I can buy a Ford Falcon XR6 turbo with 270kw and rear drive for under $45k that will do 0-100 in 5.1 sec or an Fpv GS315 for under $60k with a 5 litre supercharged V8 that will do 0-100 in 4.9 sec. All that in a car that your wife could comfortably drive and will seat 5 adults in comfort. For you to get that sort of performance and size you would have to buy a BMW or Merc for 3 times as much money, albeit with a lot more refinement, but you would hope so for three times the cost. I wish that more Australians would appreciate the bargains they have offered to them from Ford and Holden in this country and realize that once they are gone, no one will fill there shoes.
2012/04/19 18:20:11
shepv8
You're absolutely right. The current FPV's are awesome, the XR6T's are incredible cars for the money.......yet still, only a handfull of people buy them. The issue isnt whether the cars are good or value for money, because they clearly are on both counts. The issue is, that at the end of the day, the majority of people buying a car this year will buy an import front wheel drive 4 cylinder.
      Oh , I just sold a BA XR8 that I owned for 5 years. It never broke down on me but it wasnt trouble free either. It had  100000 kms on it when I sold it and had a few issues including the notorious suspension bushes, power steering, door lock actuators, power window switches, brake rotor and engine mount..........still loved it though and all my mates wished they owned it instead of the kia cerato's they bought!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
 
 
 
fehlbie

I have only ever had good experiences with Ford Falcons and my wifes focus. My last falcon a 2004 BA Falcon XT had an appetite for headlamp globes, but other than that never skipped a beat, everything worked even after 120,000kms and my heavy right foot. My 2008 FG XR6 Turbo has had the left hand indicator lens replaced twice and all six ignition coils replaced, other than that she has been a gem even at 87,000kms. My wifes ford focus had done 90,000kms and it never had an issue until someone ran into the back of it at 70km/h in a ford escape. my wife got whiplash and my son who was a baby in the back at the time didn't even get a scratch. On the other hand my wifes new car a 2008 Subaru Forester XT has crapped a gearbox and anti roll bar linkages. 
On another rant, all I can say is if you want an A to B car, then your Japanese / Asian car makers make wonderful boring as, beige cars. I would rather have my balls clamped in a vice than drive them, but I think that I am of one of the few people left that enjoy a spirited drive in a car that handles and accelerates faster than an iceberg, without spending retarded amounts of money to do so. Toyota, mazda, kia, hyundi, daewoo, mitsubishi (except the Evo's) and even Subaru (sorry Phil, maybe the BRZ when it is released) don't have anything in there ranges to get excited about. Whereas I can buy a Ford Falcon XR6 turbo with 270kw and rear drive for under $45k that will do 0-100 in 5.1 sec or an Fpv GS315 for under $60k with a 5 litre supercharged V8 that will do 0-100 in 4.9 sec. All that in a car that your wife could comfortably drive and will seat 5 adults in comfort. For you to get that sort of performance and size you would have to buy a BMW or Merc for 3 times as much money, albeit with a lot more refinement, but you would hope so for three times the cost. I wish that more Australians would appreciate the bargains they have offered to them from Ford and Holden in this country and realize that once they are gone, no one will fill there shoes.


2012/04/19 20:34:55
Phil
This thread has to be the best read on any forum anywhere at present!!
 
I think the reason that Ford and Holden arent selling as many cars to their traditional market is that they have forgotten who their traditional market is...there will always be diehard fans, but who in their right mind pulls almost all sponsorship from the V8 Supercar teams that run their brand!! If it wasnt for that...Lowndes would still be a Ford pilot!!
2012/04/19 21:18:33
Wozzah
I'd love to know what sort of money they spent designing electronic systems where mechanical systems have worked faultlessly for years, this is where they've lost the plot.  Money wasted fixing things that didn't need fixing.  The Korean stuff is designed around simple and tried and proven systems so why change it?  Must have cost a packet, and I still find it hard to beleive that the components that replace a cable system would be cheaper than the cable.  I don't have an issue with the electronics where its needed, but seriously, a complicated module to turn your interior light on and off????????
 
The other issue I have with Ford in particular is their marketing.  Unless you're a diehard fan and chase whats going on, you very rarely read or hear about it.  I get insights into what is happening through mates at Ford Motor Company, but I am yet to see an advert for the new supercharged fpv vehicle.  In was the same with the "T' series vehicles.  Ford dropped them because they didn't sell, yet only the diehards knew about them because they were poorly marketed, and you could only buy them from specialised dealers???  WTF??.  If you asked a random down the street what a HSV was nearly all of them would be able to tell you, whether they were a car buff or not, but ask them who FPV is.... 
 
I agree about some of the imported vehicles, like Mazda and Toyota.  Their new cars are brilliant, and I can plainly see why people are swinging towards them.  I have owned Falcons all my life, as has all my extended family, and found them to be brilliant.  But what I have also found is, the later the vehicles the more they are prone to failure more so than ever, and its the areas that are over complicated they are failing.  Annoying little things.
It a big statement, but I wouldn't buy a new Falcon because of all the crap that is fitted to it and the way the design has gone.  I have been a Ford nut all my life, as has my family and they all think the same, so how many others are thinking the same as me?
 
Woz
2012/04/19 23:50:57
Flighter
I empathise with your point of view Wozzah.  Sure, I like the smooth, fuel efficient performance of a modern engine, and the solid construction and additional safety features cars have today, but I don't need technology for its own sake, which I think we get in some instances.  I don't want to have to talk to the car simply to change radio stations, or twist and push an idiotic dial a dozen times (like BMW's iDrive) to do the most mundane task, when in both cases a dedicated button will do.  I don't need self-dimming mirrors that are too slow to respond, nor psychotic automatic rain-sensing windshield wipers, both of which I currently endure.  And I definitely don't need the ability to use voice commands to update a Facebook page from the car, which GM in the USA proudly includes in some cars.  Maybe that's one reason I cling dearly to my old Escort; it works despite the absence of all that tech, and if it breaks I don't need a computer to diagnose the problem, let alone fix it.
2012/04/20 11:10:14
shepv8
Im the exact opposite. My first 2 cars were Mk2,  2 litre escorts ( the second is the RS2000 I am now restoring). I remember with chills, having to warm them up before they would run properly ( thats when the auto choke actually worked), doing plugs/points/timimg every 5000kms to keep them running nice, fogged up windows in the rain and intermittent wipers that worked when they saw fit, water leaks in the cabin and boot, harsh ride, engine and road noise beyond belief etc etc!!!! It was a dream to buy an injected "modern" car with ABS ( even though I never actually used it), cruise control ( this is one tech thing I would struggle without in a daily driver let alone on a long trip) and aircon that can not only cool a cabin ( yes, I remember hot sticky vinyl seats ) but also demist the foggy windows in winter. Not to mention a car that you can actually have a conversation in because the engine and road noise isnt deafening.
But this fact is proven by the number of people that upgrade cars with injection, or even more so zetec engines, disk brake rear upgrades etc. Having said that, the ability to perform major surgery and repair on these cars over the weekend with basic tools and knowledge is undeniable and is really becomes apparent when you try and track down a fault on a modern car without an OBDII reader and a degree in computers. 
Wozzah, totally agree on Fords marketing ( or lack of ). They have absolutely no idea how to make their products appealing. It pains me to say it but holden/hsv have shown how to do it for 20 years . Oh, not sure if you knew this or not  but modern cars use less wiring now than you might think. So, now instead of being a wire for the indicators, one for the horn, one for the hazard light etc, they use common circuits for different functions. ( check out a modern steering wheel, all those buttons/functions and only 2 or 3 wires). Makes the circuits and looms simpler ( read -cheaper) and easier to modify for function and individual model requirements , but again, requires men in white lab coats to program and diagnose
 Once you get used to the niceties of a modern car its damn near impossible to go back to driving a 70's/early 80's car everyday. They are best left ( as my RS2000 will be ) for trips down memory lane and the sunday blast. Thats where nostalgia is best kept, as it tends to grow pretty thin on a day to day basis!
2012/04/20 19:14:41
fehlbie
Phil

This thread has to be the best read on any forum anywhere at present!!

I think the reason that Ford and Holden arent selling as many cars to their traditional market is that they have forgotten who their traditional market is...there will always be diehard fans, but who in their right mind pulls almost all sponsorship from the V8 Supercar teams that run their brand!! If it wasnt for that...Lowndes would still be a Ford pilot!!

I agree, Ford has lost the plot. I think it is like a lot of large corporations out there these days, it is the bean counters running the show and not the CEO. There is a lack of ambition, direction and funding in there products, advertising and motorsport support. I remember the good days when Ford had cars in formula 1, rallying, supercars and anything they could get into. They also made products that customers wanted because they listened to there customers, rather than telling them what they want (Ford america trying to force the Taurus upon the Australian market again, to save themselves some pennies). 
They need to get back to their roots and make cars that people will desire and get passionate about. All your Asian manufacturers have proven that any idiot can make a great A to B (Snore) car and frankly they can keep it, Ford needs to make more cars for enthusiasts and boast about them at any given chance. 
2012/04/21 15:34:10
Flighter
fehlbie
They need to get back to their roots and make cars that people will desire and get passionate about. 

 
Yeah, like old Escorts and Capris and the like!  
 
In all seriousness, I agree with the sentiments wholeheartedly.
2012/04/21 15:42:12
shepv8
trouble for ford is " the roots" are the minority. just a fact of life ( albeit an unfortunate one ) . People screamed for Ford to make a car deserving of the GT badge and quicker in a straight line than the HSV/holden counterparts. So, finally we have that car, and are people buying it?......look at the focus RS. When it was released a truckload of people screamed beacause it wasnt being released here and that they would buy one if it was released here , being that they were "enthusuasts, purists" of car driving dynamics. So finally we got them here in limited number and even though ford was saying they all sold out there were at least 3 brand new ones sitting in showrooms in Wollongong/newcastle 6 months after they "sold out" .who knows how many more there were that werent "sold out". Dosent matter what they build people will find a reason not to buy it, after they swore they would.  I dont know how many people Ive read on forums in the last 2 years complaining that theres no XR8 and, if there was they would buy 1 in a heartbeat.  The reason there is no XR8?... 'cause nobody was buying them. The reason there are no basic cars with throttle cables, simple suspensions  and no electronics?......'cause nobody will buy them ( save for 4 or 5 on this forum!!!!  ;-)    )
2012/04/21 18:23:24

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