Lets build a 5sgte!

Re:Lets build a 5sgte! (Sam_Q)

Sat, 27 Dec 2014 10:40:58 GMT

Hope you lot don't mind some ignorant questions- hows the block height between the engine? How about the OEM compression height of the pistons? Seeing the 3S rods can be used and assuming the same compression height that would suggest it's 2.5mm taller.

Going off what I hear about 3S engines wearing out the sides of pistons it would be a good idea to move the pin higher to help offset the rod to stroke ratio.

Too bad a Beams head can't be bolted on to a 5S block due to the lack of VVT oil feed, I have however wondered about the option of put a plug in the head and feeding it externally. This is getting off topic though.

Re:Lets build a 5sgte! (Admin)

Sat, 06 Dec 2014 15:35:51 GMT

I know this thread is old now though make sure you don't buy Ferrea oversized valves. Go with Supertech instead.
The Ferrea valves are faulty.

Re:Lets build a 5sgte! (dwyer125)

Thu, 20 Sep 2012 21:55:36 GMT

Sorry didn't get to finish above post.
I have another set of choices to make. (You're all going to be sick of me soon)
Turbo: I have a Hi-flow ct26 and a Garrett GT3076R with 0.82 A/R T3 exhaust housing. I'm thinking put the Garrett on the standard manifold with an adapter and sell the hi-flow.
I have the set of HKS cam gears I can put on, (is it worth it?)
I have a standard ECU and a SARD ECU and the Haltech E8. I'm thinking the SARD to start for simplicity.
Also have a light flywheel for it.
Do I also put the 720cc injectors and fuel rail on it too? Is the SARD ecu capable of this?

Best this is, it's all happening. Just designing brackets for this W2A and remote oil cooler at the moment.

Re:Lets build a 5sgte! (dwyer125)

Thu, 20 Sep 2012 21:48:55 GMT

Thanks for everyones advice so far, and sorry I haven't updated this sooner.
A few things have changed in the last few weeks.
First big change is I now have a W2A intercooler from frozen boost.
I have decided to split my 5sgte build into 2 parts. the 5S will still get built but for now I have a 3S getting put together. The reason to do this is to use parts that I already have, saving money initially, get my car running again with this 3S an build the 5S once I'm driving again.
Bottom end is getting put together as I write this.
Includes: 3S gen 2 block
Ross forged 1mm over pistons
New Rings
Eagle Rods
ARP Crank Studs
ACL bearings
Gen 3 MLS head gasket
New oil and water pump.
Standard head, Standard cams.
Walbro 255lph pump

Re:Lets build a 5sgte! (just_ace)

Mon, 20 Aug 2012 17:50:09 GMT

or you could use the 5sgte pistons and get longer rods made which is sort off what i've done, except i have to get custom pistons anyway due to beams head not suiting gen1-3/4 3sgte pistons

Re:Lets build a 5sgte! (just_ace)

Mon, 20 Aug 2012 17:39:07 GMT

if you used std 3s crank then you'd use the std non stroker 3sgte pistons, you'd just need to get them in an 87-87.5mm bore for the 5s block

Re:Lets build a 5sgte! (dwyer125)

Mon, 20 Aug 2012 16:53:16 GMT

The off the shelf pistons wouldn't work with the 3s crank would they?
Wouldn't you need taller pistons or longer rods?

Re:Lets build a 5sgte! (MR2QIK)

Mon, 20 Aug 2012 14:48:03 GMT

Unless the billet crank works out to be sub $1000, I wouldn't go that route given your plans. 5S & 3S cranks have been doing the hard yards for years without dramas.

With that GT3076 turbo, you won't need more than 8000rpm, in which case Eagle rods will hold up fine with the added benefit of reduced weight. If you do however, intend to go beyond that turbo & rpm limit, good idea to invest in Pauter/Carillo rods.

Another suggestion I'd make is to use a 3S crank for the better rod ratio. You'll still get increased displacement due to the larger 5S bore (along the lines of approx a 2.1L motor). Less hassle with crank gear & flywheel bolts too. I had a 3S block with 5S crank (not so far apart in displacement) & my GT3037 spooled exceptionally well. The better rod ratio should make for even better setup. In conjunction with the lighter Eagle rods, it'd be a nicely setup & priced motor. Btw, I really like my CP pistons " />

I'd expect such a setup to hit 20+ psi at around 4400rpm. The below is with a restrictive exhaust/cat, but slightly smaller hotside GT3037/76.

Would leave you with a wide 3600rpm of serious fun to play with.

Re:Lets build a 5sgte! (dwyer125)

Sat, 18 Aug 2012 15:59:08 GMT

I think I'd like to aim for similar to start off with, and once I get it running I'll upgrade parts.
I have everything I've listed in the first post except Pistons, Conrods, Bearings, Head Gasket, Turbo manifold, head studs. I'll go out to the shed now and have a play.

Re:Lets build a 5sgte! (just_ace)

Sat, 18 Aug 2012 10:11:51 GMT

if you already have the walbro and 750cc injs then yes they will still provide enough for minimum 350rwhp.

mate of mine in his gt4 (gen3 motor, cams etc) has the gtx3071 and sard 800's pushing 285awkw/390hp approx.

how much power are you aiming for? do you already have the turbo?

Re:Lets build a 5sgte! (dwyer125)

Fri, 17 Aug 2012 21:32:07 GMT

Thanks for all this advice everyone, it's good to be put on the right path.
Totenkopf, do you still have your billet cranks available? I'll check out the prices with Crower.
Regarding the pump and injectors, do you think it would be fine for me to get the car running with what I have and then upgrade and go for another tune? I think that's my best bet for now, but I agree with you.
Yeah I have the head gear and the fuel gear I have listed above, basically need to order my bottom end parts. I'll hold out on the HG until I have the black assembled so I can choose a compression ratio properly unless U can find out the volume of the CP pistons.

Re:Lets build a 5sgte! (-Totenkopf-)

Fri, 17 Aug 2012 20:45:06 GMT

If you could list which parts you already have (obviously all head components) and which parts you still need to order (still need to order the fueling gear etc?) it'd help with us giving you advice.

There are pros and cons to any way you go with the crankshaft and it all depends on what you intend on doing. Running 5S big end sizes gives you are a larger bearing surface and also more overlap on the big end and main journals (ie, stronger) however you end up with increased bearing speed. Whether or not this is a problem is arguable and will depend on the intend RPM usage and oil quality amongst other things. A benefit of the 3S journal size (at least when I looked) was better bearing selection. You only got access to budget/basic bearing materials in 5SFE sizing (ie, no ACL race spec, high spec clevite etc) This may have changed however in the last year or so, not sure.

I like the billet brian crower crank for a number of reasons
a) its 4340 chromoly, ie, stronger then the alloy used in the standard forged crankshaft
b) the flywheel PCD is 3SGTE, no butchering flywheels to suit 5SFE crankshaft
c) the flywheel bolt holes are M12 vs M10 of the 5SFE bolts. Means your using stronger bolts (and can use the ARP 3SGTE bolts). Whether or not this is a weakness is also arguable. I haven't heard of any flywheels seperating themselves whilst using 5SFE bolts, though, its not something I'd leave to chance.

Regarding pistons, I highly recommend the CP pistons. They work fine with 1mm OS valves. Pauter and Carillo rods are much more expensive then Eagles and I suspect that Eagles would work fine for your application. Your not looking at >700hp. They are also lighter then either of the other two listed. I am using custom Carillo rods but for a number of reasons that do not apply to you.

Your going a little marginal on your pump. I'd probably look at something a bit bigger, maybe the walbro 400lph pump and some 1000cc injectors. Fuel is not something you want to be running lean on. Get a standard gen 3 gasket (or aftermarket for gen 3) and machine the block to suit, imho this would be the best option.

Regarding headstuds, standard ARP's would probably be fine for you, unless your looking at pushing over 30psi of boost. If those, I'd suggest you bypass the L19 studs and go straight to the custom age 625 studs. L19 have some downsides in the way of hydrogen embrittlement problems. Okay for race teams that replace them all the time, not so great for regular joe. Regarding the crankshaft bearings, if you are grinding to 3S size then just get the standard 3S size bearing and have the crankshaft machinist grind to whatever bearing clearance you want. Get 0.25 over on the main journals and have crankshaft ground for correct clearance.

To make the most from your setup you'll likely also want to upgrade from the greddy side mount cooler.

Re:Lets build a 5sgte! (just_ace)

Fri, 17 Aug 2012 19:33:07 GMT

Cp pistons and which ever of those are cheapest, both are quality.

Re:Lets build a 5sgte! (dwyer125)

Fri, 17 Aug 2012 19:29:32 GMT

Well I better get this block and work out the water passages then, buying a 3S head gasket will at least let me choose a thickness for compression ratio.
I think I'll get the car running first before I look at swapping ECU's. We'll see how it goes and try from there, I scored it with a GT4 purchase years ago.
This is good, helping me make some decisions haha. So ATS or CP pistons? and Carrillo or Pauter rods? I can order the end of this next week.

Re:Lets build a 5sgte! (stuka)

Fri, 17 Aug 2012 18:55:13 GMT

I agree with Jay about the E8, from direct experience its sh*te. You will run out of outputs, drop out on the dyno, lose its map and end up costing you more as it sits on the dyno. Get a platinum 1000 if you can afford it and avoid plug and play kits unless its made by someone proven