Front Air Diffusers - do they work?

Re:Front Air Diffusers - do they work? (Tree)

Wed, 27 Mar 2013 22:55:34 GMT

Wow that's pretty bad for the KU36s then cos the lateral grip of the RE002 if you saw my Test and Tune videos are pretty bad imo on the track anyways. Then again it was slippery that day. AD08R now that's interesting must be new compound to denote that extra "R"?

Re:Front Air Diffusers - do they work? (MCT_MR2)

Wed, 27 Mar 2013 20:37:34 GMT

I don't rate ku36 at all, even though they behave a bit like a semi when cold, they do not provide much grip. I experienced more wheelspin with them and only marginal better lateral grip than re002's. hopefully ad08's will get a little bit cheaper with the release of ad08r's.

Re:Front Air Diffusers - do they work? (Tree)

Wed, 27 Mar 2013 20:06:13 GMT

MASSIVE difference between RE002's and the A048's I had at MR2 Track day. I think RE-11s or AD08 or KU36 better for practice since the RE002s are true road tyres. I remember Adrian telling me this a while back heh

Re:Front Air Diffusers - do they work? (Tree)

Wed, 27 Mar 2013 20:02:31 GMT

Hey mate glad you enjoyed the music too lol. I'd love to get driver training, isn't cheap tho but I'll try save up. From your description Turn one and two is the S bend?
Turn 1,2 (Esses): Am I going in too hot?
Turn 3 (honda): Hmm I'll try not braking next time
Turn 5 (sweeper): I need to work on this one. I don't take it wide enough and need to overcome the fear of driving off the edge. Should be able to full throttle from mid corner to exit.
Turn 6,7 (hairpins): Drift in both the hairpins?
Turn 10 (Northern BM): Is this the left hander? Yeh it's tricky I think mainly cos it's a left hander and I'm not used to drifting the car turning left.
Turn 11 (Petroleum Cnr): Did you combine the last 2 turns into one? I can take a better entry here I think. Do you mean entry in 3rd then down to 2nd for the last turn before the longest straight (Kitome Straight)

According to some of the pros it was a bit slippery that day. Not sure if you notice my first video but there was a big oil spill at the Petroleum Cnr. I was in 3rd at 3000 rpm and sliding!
I reckon with semi's and better sussy some of these corners esp the hairpins can be done in 3rd. Were your tips based on my videos or the last time you drove at Winton? I suspect the turbo ratios are different but nonetheless these tips are very relevant.

My shocks are almost 3 months old from brand new KYB stock replacements. Needless to say I will be changing the suspension before next track day and have already found new springs for my beast ;)
But I'm broke now so won't be getting the shocks for a while lol

Re:Front Air Diffusers - do they work? (B24)

Wed, 27 Mar 2013 18:55:58 GMT

I just watched the video footage. It looks like your getting there. Best thing you could do is have some driver training. A driver trainer will find more time than anything else and it only improves the more you drive.
A few tips. Brake early then drive into the apex until it starts to break loose then drop 2oo-300 rpm so it settles then use little steering inputs to keep it balanced.
Turn one and two: less speed in then power it out of turn two.
Turn three: You should not need to brake. Should be able to turn, lift off, the rear starts to come arouns then get back on the gas progressively.
Turn four: Same as turn three in third gear using all the track to the ripple strip on exit.
Turn five: Hold third gear on entry while turning in then lift off a little to bring the back around then back on the gas. You line should for turn five should finish at the apex of turn six.
Turn six to seven: You should have enough room to set the car for braking then braking hard aiming at the far left of the track then releasing some brake while turning in to turn seven with a late apex and powering out of the apex in four wheel slide in prep for the 'cleavage'.
Turn nine is a late apex hard on the gas and you should be able to catch the ripple strip.
Turn ten it a tricky corner. I would tend to brake early then drive at the apex till the rear steps out so the car is pointing at the back straight on exit instead of the infield.
Turn eleven is a third gear corner then back to second with lots of rpm for the run up the straight.
Your car looks like its a bit unsettled. Are the shocks OK?
Was good to watch your driving but the music was good too!

Re:Front Air Diffusers - do they work? (Tree)

Tue, 26 Mar 2013 18:14:25 GMT

Don't forget my time was done on semis haha.
A ZZW30 does 1:47.5 stock (I think) driven by Cameron McConville that's where I pulled the 1:45 from. If the ZZW30 was really indeed stock, my Beams SW20 with a racing driver and stiffer suspension should do pretty good! But the ZZW30 is said to be the best handling MR2...
And assuming I haven't gotten much better since Wakefield, your calculations should be pretty accurate :)
Uploads are finally almost done! Took me ages to edit them but it should be quite enjoyable hehe
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SEV4U7pqEY&feature=youtu.be
There's 4 sessions, first 2 are messy and lots of sliding, last two are much cleaner. Will take a bit longer until 4th one is uploaded. I started uploading yesterday night and it's still going!

Re:Front Air Diffusers - do they work? (B24)

Mon, 25 Mar 2013 20:33:57 GMT

A 1.53 is pretty good with your set up and a 1.50 should be the aim with the semi's. After doing a calulation based on your times at Wakefield against mine I came up with a 1.59 lap which means you are already way ahead of your first trackday experience.
I think I did a 1.37 consistantly so you could get to a 1.45 but will require a bit of work.
The calculation:
divided your time into my time (76sec/68sec)=1.117
multiplied your ratio by my time at winton (1.117x107sec)=119sec/1.49min
I think this is correct but please correct me if Im wrong as it would be great to get this right.
You may notice difference in the quicker corners with the front diffuser but just go for it and let us all know. Thats what its all about Tri.

Re:Front Air Diffusers - do they work? (Tree)

Mon, 25 Mar 2013 17:04:40 GMT

At my speed I don't think it will make too much difference, maybe in the S bend after the longest straight.The front diffuser I'm hoping to replace the under body panels that go underneath the radiator. I know Travis said it shouldn't make much difference, but it looks like it might. With testing we'll know.

I have about 40 mins of racing footage that I'm still editing. My best I think is about 1:53 with those road tyres and stock sussy. On semi's it's about 1:52 high traffic. I think with good driving, stiffer sussy and semi's back on the car is good for under 1:45. Might seem optimistic but I think it's fairly accurate.
I'll link the videos to my sig when it's finished.

Re:Front Air Diffusers - do they work? (B24)

Mon, 25 Mar 2013 10:28:35 GMT

I was at 7200rpm in third, grabbing fourth on entry to the sweeper. The key is the corner before.
Do you have times on your trackday? Are you looking at a front diffuser to improve front grip on entry?

The 7 degrees rake is from the front of the bumper to the lower control arm pivot points not the whole car. I think one degree is 10mm per 1000mm which would make 300mm overall. That will not work.
The same is done with the rear diffuser. 7 degree from the subframe back as far as you can(rear bumper).
Im not 100% if this is the right degree, but it has appeared from time to time.
The Pearl has about 15mm from front of car to the rear. Im not sure the reason for this but its could be a old way of helping with getting air out from under the car(slightly) and/or improving stability under braking (as we were told to do at the Wakefield 300). The Pearl is quick and will be quicker if it returns for the MTC 2014.

Re:Front Air Diffusers - do they work? (Tree)

Sun, 24 Mar 2013 23:18:50 GMT

Well I really hope one day our passions come to fruition. Once I'm done with this uni thing I'll definitely work harder to get there!
You take the sweeper at 160km/h!!? I think on semi's (A048) I reached 110km/h but it was high traffic (fun day). On road tyres (RE002) about 105km/h, a bit more with better driving/lines.
Definitely a good idea to work on driving first and foremost and the rest can come later. Even so stock suspension is just not good enough! Yeh I guess I should learn taking notes once I get "good enough" and have my Koni's and semi's back on. Getting quite serious for a road car tho hehe.
I was at Winton last Friday and the weather was great, a bit cloudy so it wasn't boiling hot in the car and the track was 99.7% dry. There were 1-2 heavy rain days but mostly sunny down here.
7 deg rake means the car is dipped lower at the front isn't it? Sorry I'm still such a noob hehe

Re:Front Air Diffusers - do they work? (B24)

Sun, 24 Mar 2013 11:36:23 GMT

Tree
Steve my man, don't be envious of uni. I'm in uni and uni sucks (except the chicks!!!). There I said it lol (but seriously, so many things>>>homework). I wanna be doing what you do and race cars for a living. Now that would be worthy of envy :)
Thanks so much for sharing that knowledge that came from your time and efforts.
The wing needs to be higher than the tallest part of the car to be effective yeh? With so much rear grip it makes sense to have more grip up front. Too bad my car won't reach the "effective" speed haha. Once I get new sussy sorted out I'll see how that goes and see if I need the front splitters at all. But seeing as my front under tray ripped off on the way to 2013 MR2 Track day, I do need a suitable replacement...at least for peace of mind...
I suspect the flat under body would make the car feel...hmm smoother or more stable high speeds?
Cool vid dude, it looks really really wet! (what she said) can defs see the water spray up

Thanks Tree but sadly, I dont race cars for a living. It's a hobby,a passion but Im in the same boat as you my friend. Looks like Uni has its perks but no matter what you do, there is always some form of homework.
As for the rear wing, mine is not as high as the boot but it does work and you can adjust to maximise what it has to offer. We cannot get massive downforce but we can get enough to create a balance in the car. I think the standard wing must work to the limits of our car and the power they produce. It would also be designed not to create a lot of drag for fuel and top end speed. A splitter would help but you need one that is similar to the attached photo in the earlier post. Im a big believer in the 7 degree of rake and veins which push the air out the side of the car. From what I can gather, this helps with cornering, reduces understeer in quick corners like turn one at PI and EC or the sweeper at Winton which is 160kmh corner.
A undertray is a good idea. We were discussing the undertray at Wakefield yesterday when Ian asked if the undertray did weigh 30+kg. It should only weigh 20kg in total but it felt a lot more on the track. It felt heavy but quite stable in the corners so its possible that I was experiencing the effects of the undertray 'sucking' the car to the track. Im not saying this is it, but its possible this was the case.
If you are using the car at the track more often, you can always get consistancy with your currrent set up and driving skills then when your ready, return to the track with the undertray and wing not fitted then do some back to back testing.
Go out for two sessions and get your 'eye in', taking lap times and video. After the second session, fit the front diffuser then go for a session. Take some notes, check the tyre temps/pressures in comparison to the earlier sessions. Then add the rear wing or adjust your existing unit then test again. Take notes,temps and pressures, then remove the parts, reset the wing then go out again. Then take notes,pressure and temps. You should then have enough info to come up with a result. If you can gain some support for your experiment you will have a great day out with some like minded people and have some feed back for the rest of the community.
As for the water spray on my car, I was looking to see if there was difference to a MR2 without a undertray and its flow in comparison. It would be great to get some footage of a std undertray and draw a back to back comparison. Is it raining down there??

Re:Front Air Diffusers - do they work? (Tree)

Sun, 24 Mar 2013 03:45:07 GMT

Cool guess I'll start with those annoying panel gaps...
Thanks for the knowledge and tips MCT!

Re:Front Air Diffusers - do they work? (MCT_MR2)

Sat, 23 Mar 2013 19:24:33 GMT

its not really the wing has to be higher than the highest part of the car - the cleaner the airflow the wing receives, the more effective it will be. the easiest way is just sticking it up in clean air, but it also makes more drag that way.

the easiest way to work out how much aero you need, or how you need to go about it is how much drag you can afford. big wings, big dive planes and really outlandish aero are all good and well, but if you cant afford the drag penalty it is useless. keeping drag down ie. cleaning up panel gaps or taping them up, smaller mirrors, removing wipers at track day, wheels being inside arches, excess weight removed, smooth, sealed arches, can be just as effective.

Re:Front Air Diffusers - do they work? (Tree)

Sat, 23 Mar 2013 00:57:16 GMT

Steve my man, don't be envious of uni. I'm in uni and uni sucks (except the chicks!!!). There I said it lol (but seriously, so many things>>>homework). I wanna be doing what you do and race cars for a living. Now that would be worthy of envy :)
Thanks so much for sharing that knowledge that came from your time and efforts.
The wing needs to be higher than the tallest part of the car to be effective yeh? With so much rear grip it makes sense to have more grip up front. Too bad my car won't reach the "effective" speed haha. Once I get new sussy sorted out I'll see how that goes and see if I need the front splitters at all. But seeing as my front under tray ripped off on the way to 2013 MR2 Track day, I do need a suitable replacement...at least for peace of mind...
I suspect the flat under body would make the car feel...hmm smoother or more stable high speeds?
Cool vid dude, it looks really really wet! (what she said) can defs see the water spray up

Re:Front Air Diffusers - do they work? (B24)

Fri, 22 Mar 2013 21:20:45 GMT

I very envious of all you guys who managed to make it to uni. Well done to you all.
My experience/knowledge is limited but I do have a little that I would like to contribute to this thread.
First: Rear wing. I did a test when towing my car to various tracks. First without the wing, then with a high downforce setting then one with a lower downforce setting. With no wing the car was not stable at all . Any wind of any type or simply cruising, the car and trailer was unstable. When driving with the higher downforce setting, I experienced some pitching at the pivot of the trailer and van due to the rear lifting. It also caused a heap of drag which was very noticable when towing. The last test was with the rear wing set to a less agressive setting where abiltiy to tow effectively was very noticable with the trailer far more balanced to the trailer.
So the wing does make a difference from 60km/h up to 110km/h.
The car is also fitted with a full undertray from the front splitter which protudes 50mm forward of the front bumper.
It is alloy with a alloy subframe bolted and pop riveted to the chassis. Its too heavy, almost 30kg which was very noticable in the track. A lighter unit will be made now we have a template. there was a difference in the way the car felt on the track but unfortunately we could not use all the power available so we could not get a clear picture of its full potential. Even so, we could carry a lot of corner speed as this didnt require a lot of throttle inputs. Out corner speed was just about as quick as the division one cars through the quicker corners on the track without any movement of the rear of the car.
We added ducting to the undertray at the engine bay which provided huge gains in engine temp management.
I believe the ducting in the frunk of the car helps remove a fair amount of air from under the car.
The canards help to clear the air exiting the side of the car. I dont run these, but will test once Im tuned into the current set up. They may not provide much downforce, but they may help in other aspects of performance.

I dont think the cars need too much rear down force but more front and a diffuser to reduce the gap between the front of the car working and the rear
I have added a video showing the car at 140kmh in wet conditions with the hope of seeing the effects of the aero fitted to my car. I believe the spray helps to see whats going on, but you be the judge. A important point being the wing was set up for high downforce and the pitch was 10mm higher at the front of the car. The driver was complaining of aquaplaning and excessive wheelspin when it would boost spike but thats another tail..

http://youtu.be/eCZGJ6jE-qs