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Brake Pedal Box Mk2 Escort

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PeterM
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2016/11/28 18:42:37 (permalink)
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Brake Pedal Box Mk2 Escort

Hi All,
 
I am modifying a Mk2 Escort with large twin pot front and rear disc brakes however do not wish to use the factory brake booster. Idea is to use an adjustable proportioning valve to bias the front to rear.
 
Has anyone tried a remote booster located in another position?
 
Surely there must already be a thread on OSF about this mod.
 
Will be an interesting project because I have a long term right leg injury so the goal is to boost to a similar brake pedal feel to a modern car.
#1


18 Replies Related Threads

    lee_doidge
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    Re: Brake Pedal Box Mk2 Escort 2016/11/28 19:20:28 (permalink)
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    Hey mate,

    I have been going through a similar scenario with my mk2 restoration. Swapping engines and need the engine bay real estate for induction. In hindsight I should have modified the cars internal panels and made room for a booster and master cylinder to be mounted hard up to the firewall. Didn't do this and won't use the standard brake booster tower so most likely will run a remote brake booster. Have upgraded my front calipers but kept the drum rears. This means I can get away with one remoter booster. If you have rear discs you will need either a dual circuit remote booster or run a pair of boosters. Depending on your desire to keep thing everything legal and your need to get changes engineers/RWC pedal assemblies and proportioning valves are tricky. A few engineers said to no to the pedal assembly. Proportioning valve, ok but can't be able to adjust it inside the car.

    So yeah, interesting project. Easy enough to make the changes you want to make, keeping everything above board I have found to be a bit more of a challenge.

    //Lee
    #2
    NQRS
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    Re: Brake Pedal Box Mk2 Escort 2016/11/29 21:29:21 (permalink)
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    Valiant / charger boosters were remote mounted on some models -VH, VJ?? Might find some info on the net about those, popular for that purpose. Cant remember details about setup though, usually fitted up inside the front guard. Len
    #3

    SFE
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    Re: Brake Pedal Box Mk2 Escort 2016/11/29 23:07:20 (permalink)
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    So why don't you like to use a bias adjustable pedal box with no boosters? Set the bias then lock it up. No dash mounted cabled adjuster. Err on the small side for master cylinder bores and you will have reasonable pedal effort with perhaps a small amount of extra pedal travel or alternatively twin remote boosters (VH44's are common) and larger bore cylinders. Both lines still plumbed through the brake failure block.
    On one of my vehicles the engineer approved the bias pedal box provided there was no 'adjuster', so set & lock nut up and still plumbed through the failure block for RWC/ADR requirements including passing pedal force pressure regs.
    Twin remote boosters can be done but complicate things if you want to say mount them hidden under the dash etc and need to run vacuum lines to them too.
    SFE
    #4
    lee_doidge
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    Re: Brake Pedal Box Mk2 Escort 2016/11/30 12:07:46 (permalink)
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    For me, bias adjustable box with no boosters was the plan. However couldnt get an engineer to sign off on it. 
    The only way they said they would allow it was if the pedal assembly was specified by the manufacturer
    as "designated for road use". Again your solution is the best/cleanest available but for me. i just couldnt engineering
    approval so having to go another route.... Annoying but what can you do.
     
    #5
    martymexico
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    Re: Brake Pedal Box Mk2 Escort 2016/11/30 16:27:40 (permalink)
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    I have a mk2 which i Modded the brake system to run std vents at the front with volvo calipers and the rear has machined down the size(to fit under 13s) of solid volvo front disks with 2001 Peugeot rear calipers. The master is from the TF Cortina and no vac booster , i needed to install an online bias tap to the rear as they were locking up first. .. With some adjusting i had it so all 4 locked almost simultaneously so max braking could be done , pedal effort wasn't much worse than a stock escort but it could haul up much much sooner.

    What is this pedal effort test rubbish?
    You can do a dodgy with the brake pedal and where the clevis pin holes are .. just Weld them up and move the holes up 5mm , this will totally change the pedal effort to softer but make sure it still gets full stroke to the master . Could lengthen the pedals as well. I'll prolly get bagged out for that comment !!

    If you go looking for a remote vac booster , they are plenty about in usa & uk cheaper than Aus. . With the freight and exchange rate . Another option is use a Datsun 120y master butted up at the firewall ..
    post edited by martymexico - 2016/11/30 16:34:45
    #6

    SFE
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    Re: Brake Pedal Box Mk2 Escort 2016/12/01 09:59:33 (permalink)
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    What is this pedal effort test rubbish? /Marty Mexico, above
     
    Engineering here in Victoria when I did my car required a 'fade test procedure' . My test report lists number of stops, time between stops, maximum pedal effort, average & peak deceleration, speeds etc. All listed under ADR31, so I guess national requirement?
     
    SFE
    #7
    ratta tat tat
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    Re: Brake Pedal Box Mk2 Escort 2016/12/03 00:09:03 (permalink)
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    I did away with the booster on my old Mk1 and swapped it for 1100cc MK1 Escort master cylinder straight on the firewall. It worked well but did require a lot more pedal force.
    With my MK2 I want to keep the factory booster but I have rear disc brakes so it won't work. Does anyone have links or part numbers for a dual circuit booster that will work with Mk2 front brakes/ R31 skline rear brakes?  I definitely don't want to go unboosted again. By law in Qld, if the car came factory with a booster, it must run one.
    #8
    NQRS
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    Re: Brake Pedal Box Mk2 Escort 2016/12/03 22:19:44 (permalink)
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    my car is registered in Qld and I got an engineered mod plate for the conversion. Used the standard booster but have to have a larger dual circuit master cylinder. I've used a Mazda 626 one but pedal effort isn't right.  Hoppers Stoppers do a big brake kit and use the XA/ XB master cylinder, not aware if they supply a different booster.  I'm looking to convert to the ford one if my mazda setup cant be made to give me better pedal pressure.  My nephew works for a brake place and we started in earnest today getting some testing done.  The R31 caliper conversion has been done by quite a few people on this forum, would be interesting to hear results of those using standard boosters, or do most people use an upgraded pedal box??
    #9
    PeterM
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    Re: Brake Pedal Box Mk2 Escort 2016/12/03 23:06:42 (permalink)
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    What is the technical difference between using an adjustable brake pedal box to using an adjustable proportioning valve located near the rear axle housing?
    The adjustable brake pedal box seems to me to be a very complex and messy solution, the adjustable proportioning valve seems much simpler.
    #10
    SFE
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    Re: Brake Pedal Box Mk2 Escort 2016/12/04 10:00:42 (permalink)
    +1 (1)
    A brake proportioning valve is designed to reduce the brake line pressure to compensate for varying road &/or load conditions. So for fitment of one to the rear line you'd want to be sure that the car was overbraked on the rear. If your fronts that you plan to fit  were too powerful then the valve would be useless, you can't dial up more line pressure than you produce, that's my understanding of the how the accessory ones  work. That's the beauty of a bias pedal box,  you can change the balance of pressures front to rear, not just only reduce the line pressure as the proportioning valve does.
     
    A properly designed pedal box with the master cylinders mounted in the car above the pedals has a different lever ratio to that of a standard pedal box  so the pedal effort is much less, even with un-boosted bias boxes, when compared to those applications where people just bolt a master cylinder direct to the firewall and use the standard pedal/rod geometry and no booster. If  you are concerned about going without a booster because of your bung leg, pedal effort is also unlike standard brakes with a faulty booster!
     
    SFE 
    post edited by SFE - 2016/12/04 11:58:46
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    Paul Dunstan
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    Re: Brake Pedal Box Mk2 Escort 2016/12/04 10:35:11 (permalink)
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    I agree. My knowledge is that a proportioning valve is designed to moderate the line pressure to the rear brakes. Some have a "knee" point to limit the pressure as braking forces increase to prevent lockups as the weight distribution moves forward. To me this is the opposite of what you're after as disc brakes require more pressure for a given deceleration rate.

    Cheers

    Paul
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    NQRS
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    Re: Brake Pedal Box Mk2 Escort 2016/12/04 16:27:39 (permalink)
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    Pauls post leads me back to comments about the function of the proportioning valve in the engine bay, my understanding is that it allots more pressure to the front ( discs ) and less to the rear ( drums ) in the standard setup. I have discs on the rear- smaller than the front ones, do I leave the proportioning valve as is?   Maybe I need to look at plumbing in a late model version from a 4 wheel disc setup- like the Focus my rear brakes came from? Len
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    Paul Dunstan
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    Re: Brake Pedal Box Mk2 Escort 2016/12/04 16:41:00 (permalink)
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    I wasn't aware that there was a proportioning valve on a standard Escort? I know of the pressure differential valve with the switch bet where is the proportioning valve?

    Cheers

    Paul
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    SFE
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    Re: Brake Pedal Box Mk2 Escort 2016/12/04 16:50:53 (permalink)
    +1 (1)
     The 'proportioning' of pressure is usually done inside the master cylinder, that's why there are separate  front and rear lines exiting it. People keep referring to the device on the RH inner guard under the booster bracket as a proportioning valve but it's not. It is the brake failure switch, a simple pendulum switch, one end is front line pressure in & out, the other end rear in & out. Lose front or rear circuit pressure and your failure light comes on as the pendulum moves and triggers the switch. You will note in your workshop manuals it is actually called a Pressure Differential Warning switch
    SFE 
    post edited by SFE - 2016/12/05 13:35:26
    #15
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