2012/11/22 14:10:00
Matt75
Hi Guys,
 
I have tried bleeding the brakes a number of times and get a nice hard pedal once done but when I come back in 5 mins or so the pedal will sink down and will become hard again once pumped a couple of times.

I have bled the brakes, both back and front, about 3 times as well as the M/C now and am nearly certain I have all the air out and am starting to think it may be the M/C leaking between the front and rear fluid curcuits internally as I am not losing any fluid externally.

The Volvo calipers have 3 bleed nipples and I have bled each one in turn to ensure there is no air anywhere.

Anyone have any suggestions on what i can to try to narrow down the issues be it air in the system or problems with the M/C?

Many thanks

Matt
2012/11/22 14:25:00
tanz
Matt,
 
does the pedal fall to the floor if you apply light pressure to it? Just a little more pressure than resting your foot on the pedal. If it does, then I'd be thinking that the fluid is indeed bypassing the seals in the master cylinder.
2012/11/22 14:39:39
Matt75
Just checked and it seems there is some pressure there but it needs a couple of pedal pushes before it feels like it should.
 
It will sink down with moderate pressure but not all the way.  I would expect if the M/C was shot then it would go all the way down?
 
Cheers
 
Matt
2012/11/22 18:05:04
RS 2000
excessive piston 'pull back' on freshly rebuilt calipers? 
 
Cheers
2012/11/22 18:14:08
Matt75
What can you do for that?

Matt
2012/11/22 18:28:40
the_cheese
Hey Matt,
 
when my M/C was stuffed the pedal would go all the way to the floor.
 
I could also hear a tiny squirt or whoosing sound coming from the M/C as it sucked air or whatever was wrong towards the end of the pedal press.
 
Did you end up using the 120y m/c? Didn't you get a new unit?
 
Sorry I can't be of more help, my experience with brakes has been exhausted! 
2012/11/22 19:03:44
Matt75
Cheers mate,

It is new but got it 2nd hand.

Cheers

Matt
2012/11/22 19:24:54
RS 2000
Firstly you need to confirm that is the problem. if you are running rubber brake hoses (I think you dont from memory) you would clamp the hose using brake hose clamp and then check your pedal feel, and to further confirm and 
if you run braided you will have to physically have a look if pistons are moving an excessive amount(remember it doesnt take a lot of piston movement as there is 8 of them just in your front brakes. you may need another person to assist(someone pushes while you have a look).
If this is in fact excessive piston pull back, just so you or anyone else reading fully understand how it works, why it is happening and how to fix it here is a quick explanation.
 
Piston pull back or Retraction works like this - the caliper piston is sealed by a seal with a rectangular cross section. When the piston in the caliper is applied this seal tends to "stick" to the piston and it deforms sideways as the piston moves. When we let off the pressure in the brake, the seal wants to regain its old shape and it retracts backwards and drags the piston with it.
This is a normal operation, however when the seals are new(freshly rebuilt) or possibly not lubricated enough this action is so excessive to a point of almost no pedal which responds to couple of quick pumps resulting in full solid pedal that doesn't creep down(if it creeps down it may be another issue, master cyl etc.). The problem is much worse with multi piston calipers as more fluid is displaced making the pedal lower/worse.
 
Now that you understand how and why here is how to fix it. If you had some pull back but reasonable pedal this problem would normally go away with a bit of use, few thermal cycles etc and pedal would become normal. Since it is very bad this is what you have to do.
The idea is to make the pistons come out further than they need to be, then push pistons back just enough so you can slide the pad in with some friction/resistance. An ideal tool is partialy worn pad, slide you worn pad in  and pump the pedal till pistons contact the pad, now remove worn pad and replace with new pad making sure there is friction as you slide it into caliper! you may need to repeat the procedure till you get it right. once happy move to the other side of that caliper and then do the same with the other caliper.  After a bit of use the seals relax enough so that this no longer happens, although I did have a bad one in the past where I needed to re-do above procedure after the bed in period.(was a multi piston/small master combo)
The reason for using an old pad is so that you dont accidentaly 'pop' the piston. 
 
Before you go ahead and do this, make sure that this is the problem by confirming first.
 
Cheers
2012/11/22 20:56:18
Matt75
Cheers Mate for that in depth and informative post.
 
It certainly makes a lot of sense and would account for the issues I have.
 
I'll whip thr wheels off again and have a look as you have suggested.
 
Could another explanation be that the pads are yet to bed in properly and haven't yet settled down?  When I took the wheels off the other day I noticed that the wear marks on the rotors were not uniform as you'd expect from a  proper pad connection to the rotor.  It looks like only half the pad is connecting with the rotor.
 
Thanks for your help again
 
Matt
 
   
2012/11/22 21:15:39
RS 2000
Matt75

Cheers Mate for that in depth and informative post.

It certainly makes a lot of sense and would account for the issues I have.

I'll whip thr wheels off again and have a look as you have suggested.

Could another explanation be that the pads are yet to bed in properly and haven't yet settled down?  When I took the wheels off the other day I noticed that the wear marks on the rotors were not uniform as you'd expect from a  proper pad connection to the rotor.  It looks like only half the pad is connecting with the rotor.

Thanks for your help again

Matt

  

As I said earlier the best thing to do is get someone to apply the brake while you watch all 4 pistons in operation, if its pull back issue you will clearly see piston movement before it touches the pad. you will need an assistant.
 
Cheers
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