2011/02/20 16:18:08
Mickas
quote:
Originally posted by Phil

All of the above is only relevant if the heat transfer can occur...which will only occur efficiently if the coolant flow is travelling at the correct speed...to fast is as bad as to slow. To fast and the heat tranfer between the coolant and the radiator structure is hindered, to slow and the transfer between the radiator structure and the atmosphere cant keep up. Its a no win situation for to fast or to slow...it needs to be just right.

The 'just right' speed of flow will be very hard to identify and will change as the ambient temps change. The Davies Craig electric pump is most effective at maintaining the correct flow as it is monitoring the heat stored in the coolant.

A good example of to much flow being bad is what happens if a factory waterpump is spun to fast...I had a Sigma years ago with a modified 2.6L and it kept blowing up heater cores...the fix was to fit a larger water pump pulley to slow the pump down...Danny's N/A YB is also a good example of this...the revs it see's demand's a larger waterpump pulley to slow down the water pump



I am with him
2011/02/20 18:21:54
Wagin

Haha - I do like a good technical debate!

I did a lot of work on engine cooling systems in 2008 as part of my final year engineering project and really enjoy this subject so my thoughts are as follows:

From the graph I have attached you can see that at normal atmospheric pressure, ~101 KPa or just under 15 psi, water will boil at 100 deg C. If the pressure is increased, the temperature at which it boils increases. Whilst if the pressure decreases, the boiling temperature also decreases.



Cavitation occurs when the pressure of a liquid drops enough to cause it to boil at whatever temperature it is at. In engines, the motion of the pump impeller in the coolant creates both high and low pressure regions around it, in much the same way an object, such as a car, passing through air does. Cavitation will occur in the low pressure zones of the coolant if the temperature is high enough to cause it to boil. So, for example, if the pressure of the coolant at one point near the impeller is ~70 KPa, than the temperature at that point only needs to be ~90 deg C for cavitation to occur. Cavitation around the water pump will show as pitting on the pump housing and impeller.

The reason race engines such as Danny's usually feature larger water pump pulleys when using otherwise standard water pumps is to reduce the impeller speed. Ford did not design the YB engine to run at 10,000 rpm or whatever Danny's does, so if the impeller speed was not reduced either the coolant pressure would be too great (possibly causing things like heater core failures as mentioned by Phil) and/or causing cavitation at the impeller due to it rotating at a speed higher than it was designed to.

With regard to the location of the fill point, if the cooling system fill point is lower than any of the coolant passages in the engine the system may be difficult to bleed and the possibility of pockets of air being trapped at high points exists. Cavitation is not the correct term here, rather this can cause air locks in the system which hinder coolant flow, or the formation of pockets of steam at very high temperatures and pressures which can cause damage to the engine.

Back to the flow rate question, I believe Phil is correct with regard to coolant flow speed. Heat transfer is not an instant process, and water takes a fair amount of time to heat up and cool down relative to the engine block and radiator. This means that if the coolant flow is too great then not only will it not be taking as much heat away from the engine as it potentially could, it will not be losing as much of its heat to the air passing through the radiator as it could. If coolant flow is too slow the engine will produce more heat than the coolant can carry away. Both would result in an over heating engine.

So the ideal point is indeed somewhere in the middle...

Sorry about the length there, I hope you find it useful.

Regards,
Wagin
2011/02/20 18:39:55
Mark
Going straight back to thermodynamics, the larger delta T (difference in temperature) the higher the heat transfer rate. Easy, given the same system that is of course....

The theory of not enough time to cool the water is not the issue at all because it is the overall heat exchange that matters...(J/s)

I design cooling systems all the time, and we trade off flow and efficiency to get the best outcome for the given data...Yes if coolant flows slowly the water will exit the radiator at a lower temp but at a lower flow and lower energy loss per unit time due to the lowering delta T. The trick is the have the best efficiency.
The thermostat is so important as it brings engine temps up quickly, regulates it AND it gives a coolant reservoir of cooler liquid (if ambient conitions allow)....Obviously when you race around there is no chance to build up the reservoir so you rely on high flow to keep the coolant circulating....I recommend the highest max flow combined with efficiency of the pump (cavitation will be detrimetnal to cooling capacity)...
So if you can have "lower" efficient pump flow and still cool the engine, then this is a winning situation.....
Ha - I was writing my response as you were wagin.....
2011/02/20 20:43:58
Phil
So the ideal situation is as much flow as possible without the pump cavitating, but no more flow than can produce an efficient exchange of heat[%]
2011/02/20 22:08:12
muzza
Some great food for thought!

It does seem like in the real world flow rate combined with heat transfer rate has a trade off where the energy to drive the pump is more than the return in heat transfer therefore it would be useless running any faster. And also there is a cavitation threshold which should not be breached and would result in more harm than good.




2011/02/22 00:26:43
muzza
Thinking of buying this stuff, Looks impressive

http://www.evanscooling.com/npg-r/
2011/02/22 06:21:30
Phil
I know a few people using this type of coolant, feedback is all good
2011/02/22 10:03:02
Steviestar
I've always used nulon ultracool in my race cars and in the daily hacks,even use it in my VL Group A which has a stroker 383 twin turbo and it even keeps her happy. Without a doubt the best on the market in my opinion
http://www.nulon.com.au/products/Ultra_Cool/
2011/02/23 10:37:41
muzza
quote:
Originally posted by Steviestar

I've always used nulon ultracool in my race cars and in the daily hacks,even use it in my VL Group A which has a stroker 383 twin turbo and it even keeps her happy. Without a doubt the best on the market in my opinion
http://www.nulon.com.au/products/Ultra_Cool/



I checked this product, according to the site it is only a rust/corrision inhibitor, It doesn't do anything to increase the boiling point of the water and prevent hotspots in the motor from damaging steam pockets etc I'm after a product that does both.
2011/02/23 14:27:56
danny m
Redline Water Wetter
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