I have a thread in showroom (haydn's MK1) showing the progress of my 1.3 to 1.6 engine swap.
So I got the motor installed a couple of nights back, spent the last day or so fitting the manifolds and hoses. Then
I put in oil & water, cranked the motor with no plugs to get the oil pressure up. I should note at this point the engine was running beautifully in the donor car prior to removal and fitting to my car. All I did was remove the flywheel and spigot bearing (because it was off a manual box) and put the 1.3 drive plate on to match it with my Borg Warner 3 speed auto.

So I crank it over till oil comes out the galleries in the rocker. Then replace rocker cover, install plugs, connect leads and fire it up. It fires up good as gold, but a second later there's an awful screeching noise. Sounds like metal on metal. So I obviously turned it off right away. I cranked it over by hand and heard the gears from the starter are still meshed with the drive wheel. I read through the manual and see that I have the pre-engaged lucas starter. I'm hoping it's something as simple as the starter mnotor, because everything else was carried out text book style, no short cuts. I have also been advised it could be the 1300 sump I used instead of the 1600 sump. The longer stroke from the 1600 means contact with the sump, but the result has been decribed as a knocking noise, not a screech. I'd hate to get the motor out and fit the 1600 sump, only to discover it was not the problem.

Have you tried replacing the starter with another?

Thanks
Craig

No I haven't. It was the starter I was using on the 1300. It was a bit stuffed, had it's good and bad days. But never caused a noise like now. Thanks for the suggestion, I will track one down asap and give it a go. If anyone around Bris has one for sale please let me know. Thanks

I think the sumps are slightly different between 1300 & 1600s but can't be dead sure as my parts books don't cover anything after 1975/76 - but also be aware that the Dipsticks & their guide tubes are different between 1300 & 1600s as well. Be aware that sump pans vary between Mk1 & Mk2 Escorts, and Cortinas. Before thinking about changing the sump pans over, check for a stamped part number on them somewhere - mine are greasy so don't ask me where - and compare the numbers.

Sounds to me like your main problem is with the starter motor - the Autos use a Bosch pre-engaged type of starter motor, same as those used on the 2 Litre Pintos. The Bosch starter fitted to all Escorts is shorter than the one fitted to Pintos in Cortinas, due to crossmember clearance issues on the Escorts. The flex plate from the auto also has a different diameter ring gear to the manual gearbox version, and the lead-in chamfers on the gear teeth are all on the opposite side to the manual ring gear. If you are using one of the Lucas inertia type starter motors, the pinion gear is also a larger diameter than the Bosch starter pinion, and will not be engaging properly due to this difference in Diameter and the fact that the Lucas starter needs the chamfered lead ins on the opposite side. The Lucas inertia starters are only factory fitted to manual gearbox 1300 & 1600 Kent engines.

That screeching sound you mention sounds like the Starter Motor Pinion gear to me - it isn't disengaging from the Ring Gear and is also likely rubbing against it. I had a similar problem when my Lucas Starter (they're not the best design) had the pinion gear stick on its shaft and not release properly. It really was a high pitched squeal from memory. That was on a 4 speed manual on a car that hadn't been apart for years - the solution was to pull out the starter, strip it down, polish the rust off the shaft where the pinion is supposed to slide freely (it was sticking - not sliding properly) regrease the whole assembly, and put it back together. Four years later it's still going fine. Your problems are more likely to be a mix and match of the wrong components - I've pulled a couple of the short Bosch starters out of 1600 Kents fitted with C3 Auto Trans's at my local wreckers, and also robbed a couple off of Pintos including Cortinas - so I've found the differences.

And yes, the starters all fit up fine using the same bolt pattern.

Beware that there are two different diameter Ring gears used on Escorts and two different types of starters - Lucas or Bosch.

The 1300 & 1600 Kent Engines with manual trans have a smaller diameter ring gear (smaller ring gear, larger starter pinion) to those fitted to the Pintos (which have a larger diameter ring gear and a smaller starter pinion) - and the same applies 1300 + 1600 Kents fitted with C3 Auto trans. The ring gears fitted to Pintos - both manual and automatic - are the same pitch & diameter as those fitted to the 1300 & 1600 Kents with C3 Auto trans.

If you're lucky you will be able to check for burrs & any damage to the ring gear by pulling out the starter motor and having a look in there using a mirror on a stick & a flashlight - be careful using your fingers checking for any burrs on the ring gear as they will be sharp and fingers are soft!

Cheers

Thanks heaps for all that info. I'll give you a run down of exactly what I used and interchanged.

The car was originally 1300cc (681F) automatic.

I bought a 1600 (711m) long block that was seperated from a manual transmission.


I pulled out the 1300 and removed the drive plate from the crank shaft.

I then removed the flywheel and spigot bearing from the 1600 and bolted on the 1300 drive plate.


Now, what I discovered last night is that there is a 4mm difference between the 1300 and 1600 "rear of block to crankshaft face measurement"

This means that when I bolted the drive plate onto the 1600 crank and mated it to my auto, it pulled the converter 4mm closer to the block. This is the reason why the starter pinion has been fouling with the ring gear and is also the reason why (after spacing the starter with washers) there is still fouling with the ring gear to converter housing after ignition.

So now I'm in the process of taking the motor out again to remove the drive plate, and take the washer into an engineering workshop so they can use it as a template to make up a 4mm thick crankshaft spacer.

I'm using the original starter Lucas M35J on the same ring gear so nothing has changed as far as parts go,, just the distances have changed.

Aah, the plot thickens!!

I've got out the parts book this time, and it would seem that you still have some mis-matched components.

Ford list two different part numbers for torque converters - 74DT 7K810 TA is for the 1300; 74DT 7K810 KA is for the 1600. The ring gear and flex plate and all other mounting hardware is the same between the 1300 & 1600. Might pay to check for stamped part numbers on your converter, Ford do have part numbers on most parts. You would likely be better off finding the correct Torque Converter as the 1600s do put out more power.

Next, it would seem that the Lucas M35J has been used to replace the original Bosch starter at some point in the car's life, because it sure as heck never left the factory with that starter fitted to a C3 Auto!! (The M35J are fitted to the manual gearbox Escort 1300 & 1600s) If you're lucky, a clever auto electrician would have put a smaller pinion gear on it the same size as the Bosch Starter has, as my local guy has offered to build me up whatever I need, as different size pinion gears are available for both of these starters, due to them being fitted to a wide variety of pommy cars. It is likely though that the ring gear on the drive plate hasn't been reversed, so it won't be engaging very smoothly!

The correct starter for your Auto Trans is a Bosch Pre-Engaged type, Identification : AR71AB/BA and Ford Part No. EJ 11001BA - and thats from my Ford Australia 1975/76 Parts Book dated September 1975. This is the same type of starter as fitted to the Pinto Engines, but make sure that if you're going to get one, find the correct shorter one as the longer unit fitted to Cortina Pintos will require you to lift the engine out to swap it over (it is real close to the Engine Mount/Front Crossmember - the correct Escort Bosch Starter can be removed/replaced as easily as the Lucas Starter.

I am in the process of converting a Manual 1600 to take the Bosch Starter, as they're vastly superior to the Lucas offering, hence my local auto electrician offering to swap pinion gears for me.

Might be easier for you to source the correct Torque Converter first, as a starter can be swapped over at any time without taking the engine out. A spacer might not solve all your problems.

Cheers

[%]

Thanks again Ian.
My escort is 1970 MK1 super. It has the pre engaged Lucas M35J fitted as standard. There were no problems using it with the 1300 and C3, as I've mentioned I'm using all the same parts. Just the block has changed.

I was half expecting there to be some differences between the 1.3 and 1.6 autos. I have been told they are a tough old transmission.
The spacer seems like a quick and easy solution, but I'll happily check the measurements of a 1600 C3 if I can find one. The problem is different crank ends. That's where my measurements differ. Is it possible to actually pull the ring gear closer to the block if the drive plate isn't completely flush?

Hello Haydn, didn't realise your Mk1 was a 1970, so back to the parts books to ease my confusion - Ford list two different part numbers for Torque Converters for the 1300s, with no clear explanation given - a guess would be 711M 1300 versus the earlier 1300s?

The part numbers quoted in my earlier posting for Torque Converters is from the Mk2 parts book, and should be good. A torque converter from a 1600 Mk2 should bolt straight up, no need for a spacer.

Also, the starters - Bosch pre-engaged were introduced October 1971, and the parts book states to use them as replacements as the earlier Lucas units no longer serviced. (as @ 1975 when the book was printed) So I stand corrected, your starter is likely the original one from when the car was new - it can't have done much work!

Cheers

63,000 genuine miles. When I pulled the sump off everything was still bright & shiny! I read somewhere recently that the average life of a crossflow bottom end is about 40 years [:0]

Getting back to the converter, what I was trying to explain earlier is that my spacing problem is not due to the converter whether it be 1300 or 1600. It's the crank ends that differ. The 1300 crank protudes 4mm further out from the rear of the block than the 1600 crank. So when I fix the drive plate to the ring gear with my 1600 (4mm shorter), it pulls the ring gear forwards slightly- the cause of all my problems.

Forgive my ignorance of Mk1's, but didn't they have BW35's in them... Mk2 Autos had the C3's... BW35's were used in everything in Aus in the late 60's and early 70's from my understanding.. (Everythnig being Holdens, Fords and Vals of the era..)